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Europe used to be intertwined with North Africa and current Turkey/Israel a lot in medieval times (those regions were parts of Roman Empire for quite some time)

Europe used to be intertwined with North Africa and current Turkey/Israel a lot in medieval times (those regions were parts of Roman Empire for quite some time). It’s quite recent that very strong ties between Europe and North Africa / closer part of Middle East have been cut more or less.

jxub 9y ago
Would you have some pointers to more information on the topic?
- freehunter 9y ago
  The History of Rome podcast talks a lot about present day Turkey and the rest of Asia Minor, as well as Carthage and Egypt and other North African places as they were all parts of the Empire. I don't have anything more specific about later history, but the spice trade and the Orient Express are two (I think) fascinating pieces of history that tie Western Europe to North Africa and eastern Asia. The history of the Crusades is also integral to understand the mixing of these areas... Europe wouldn't have cared if they didn't think east Asia was "theirs" in some way.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    I don't have anything more specific about later history The History of Byzantium podcast picks up right where the History of Rome left off. It's mostly about the east Roman empire, but also covers the all its neighbors. https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/ https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/
    - richardknop 9y ago
      I would continue the Roman story even after the end of Byzantine Empire. Indirect continuation would be Holy Roman Empire. Very interesting podcasts could be made about its history, intrigue and power struggles. All the way up to events which led to First World War.
  - freehunter 9y ago
    Sorry I wrote east Asia when I meant west Asia, but I didn't realize until after I couldn't edit it anymore. West Asia aka the Middle East.
- richardknop 9y ago
  I’d definitely start with Ancient Greece as it preceded Romans and Romans had to wage war agains Greek states in the beginning to become the real deal. Perhaps even start with Alexander the Great and his conquest. I would then look into Carthaginian wars, famous general Hannibal and his fate. This was a crucial period when Rome was competing with Carthage for the top spot and at times it looked quite dire for Rome as Carthage had an upper hand. Next interesting period would be Julius Ceazar and especially what happened after his death when his generals were battling to inherit his empire which eventually led to the split into eastern and western Romans. This split later continued when Christianity became mainstream religion and lead to Byzantine Empire. You can look into the sack of Constantinople and wonder what would happen if Western Christians didn’t sack and destroy Eastern Christians allowing Islam to take over the region. And then we come to the German rise as German lands become the heart of the indirect continuation of the Roman Empire in the form of Holy Roman Empire.
- dkarl 9y ago
  The Yale series on the early middle ages has some good info in the first six or seven lectures[1] My favorite relevant tidbit is that Roman North Africa was the major supplier of grain to Italy, at least in the 4th and 5th centuries, when disruptions in North Africa could cause famines in the city of Rome. When the Vandals in Spain were looking around for another juicy piece of the Roman empire to settle in, they (supposedly) wrangled themselves an invitation from the Roman governor of North Africa, whom they promptly betrayed and defeated. They consolidated control of North Africa and held it for almost a century until Justinian, ruling from Byzantium, took Africa back for the empire. At that point, North Africa was a much more important region than Italy was, and many historians argue that Justinian's reconquest of Italy from the Goths immediately afterwards was a waste of time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8JcWVRFp8&list=PL77A337915A76F660 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8JcWVRFp8&list=PL77A337915...
- moufestaphio 9y ago
  Most of the replies are related to Roman stuff, but more 'recent' checkout the Moors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors They created some amazing architecture and culture in Southern Spain.
  - petecox 9y ago
    The article's record of Spain ends abruptly in the late 7th century, only 4 decades prior to Islamic rule. So either the Umayyads had no use for camels or Dr Green's research doesn't include records from the period.
zeveb 9y ago
Yup, people forget that the Mediterranean was the middle of the known Earth, not its southern border.
- richardknop 9y ago
  Yes. Romans actually were heavily invested in Northern Africa - today’s Egypt, Libya and so on were valuable parts of their domain. Northern Europe was actually more unstable and more of a “barbarian” land controlled by wild Germanic tribes. Those got later incorporated into the empire through the Roman army which preferred soldiers from Germanic lands in the north due to their valor in battle.
mc32 9y ago
Wasn't Turkey, well, Anatolia, mostly Greek/Hellenistic in nature, especially along the significant coastline, and wasn't till the ottomen and their "conquista" of the peninsula drove out the Greek and Roman vestiges?
- richardknop 9y ago
  The crucial point was the sacking of Constantinople. Basically Western Christians sacking the city and raping and destroying center of Eastern Christianity. If Christians would have instead united history could have been quite different. The era of crusades is very interesting and complex. Lots of very important historical events that shaped the world history afterwards happened during those times. Lots of parallels could be drawn even to our current time we are living (hint hint).
- tboyd47 9y ago
  The most significant demographic change for the city was actually not the Ottoman conquest, but its destruction and rule by the Western Christians ~200 years prior. These events took the population down from about 400,000 to about 35,000. It never recovered. By the time Mehmed II came along, it was only 50,000.
  - ng12 9y ago
    Constantinople was just one city though. Antioch, Edessa, Trebizond were all major Greek cities which were conquered by the Turks.
    - richardknop 9y ago
      It’s pure speculation but if instead of sacking Constantinople and killing all of those people West made an alliance with East, Byzantine Empire could have survived, albeit losing substantial territories in the East. The situation of Eastern Romans was bad with them losing a lot of their eastern provinces but they still had some fight left in them.
      - 9y ago

jxub 9y ago

Would you have some pointers to more information on the topic?

freehunter 9y ago
The History of Rome podcast talks a lot about present day Turkey and the rest of Asia Minor, as well as Carthage and Egypt and other North African places as they were all parts of the Empire. I don't have anything more specific about later history, but the spice trade and the Orient Express are two (I think) fascinating pieces of history that tie Western Europe to North Africa and eastern Asia. The history of the Crusades is also integral to understand the mixing of these areas... Europe wouldn't have cared if they didn't think east Asia was "theirs" in some way.
- icebraining 9y ago
  I don't have anything more specific about later history The History of Byzantium podcast picks up right where the History of Rome left off. It's mostly about the east Roman empire, but also covers the all its neighbors. https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/ https://thehistoryofbyzantium.com/
  - richardknop 9y ago
    I would continue the Roman story even after the end of Byzantine Empire. Indirect continuation would be Holy Roman Empire. Very interesting podcasts could be made about its history, intrigue and power struggles. All the way up to events which led to First World War.
- freehunter 9y ago
  Sorry I wrote east Asia when I meant west Asia, but I didn't realize until after I couldn't edit it anymore. West Asia aka the Middle East.
richardknop 9y ago
I’d definitely start with Ancient Greece as it preceded Romans and Romans had to wage war agains Greek states in the beginning to become the real deal. Perhaps even start with Alexander the Great and his conquest. I would then look into Carthaginian wars, famous general Hannibal and his fate. This was a crucial period when Rome was competing with Carthage for the top spot and at times it looked quite dire for Rome as Carthage had an upper hand. Next interesting period would be Julius Ceazar and especially what happened after his death when his generals were battling to inherit his empire which eventually led to the split into eastern and western Romans. This split later continued when Christianity became mainstream religion and lead to Byzantine Empire. You can look into the sack of Constantinople and wonder what would happen if Western Christians didn’t sack and destroy Eastern Christians allowing Islam to take over the region. And then we come to the German rise as German lands become the heart of the indirect continuation of the Roman Empire in the form of Holy Roman Empire.
dkarl 9y ago
The Yale series on the early middle ages has some good info in the first six or seven lectures[1] My favorite relevant tidbit is that Roman North Africa was the major supplier of grain to Italy, at least in the 4th and 5th centuries, when disruptions in North Africa could cause famines in the city of Rome. When the Vandals in Spain were looking around for another juicy piece of the Roman empire to settle in, they (supposedly) wrangled themselves an invitation from the Roman governor of North Africa, whom they promptly betrayed and defeated. They consolidated control of North Africa and held it for almost a century until Justinian, ruling from Byzantium, took Africa back for the empire. At that point, North Africa was a much more important region than Italy was, and many historians argue that Justinian's reconquest of Italy from the Goths immediately afterwards was a waste of time. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8JcWVRFp8&list=PL77A337915A76F660 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZC8JcWVRFp8&list=PL77A337915...
moufestaphio 9y ago
Most of the replies are related to Roman stuff, but more 'recent' checkout the Moors: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors They created some amazing architecture and culture in Southern Spain.
- petecox 9y ago
  The article's record of Spain ends abruptly in the late 7th century, only 4 decades prior to Islamic rule. So either the Umayyads had no use for camels or Dr Green's research doesn't include records from the period.

zeveb 9y ago

Yup, people forget that the Mediterranean was the middle of the known Earth, not its southern border.

richardknop 9y ago
Yes. Romans actually were heavily invested in Northern Africa - today’s Egypt, Libya and so on were valuable parts of their domain. Northern Europe was actually more unstable and more of a “barbarian” land controlled by wild Germanic tribes. Those got later incorporated into the empire through the Roman army which preferred soldiers from Germanic lands in the north due to their valor in battle.

mc32 9y ago

Wasn't Turkey, well, Anatolia, mostly Greek/Hellenistic in nature, especially along the significant coastline, and wasn't till the ottomen and their "conquista" of the peninsula drove out the Greek and Roman vestiges?

richardknop 9y ago
The crucial point was the sacking of Constantinople. Basically Western Christians sacking the city and raping and destroying center of Eastern Christianity. If Christians would have instead united history could have been quite different. The era of crusades is very interesting and complex. Lots of very important historical events that shaped the world history afterwards happened during those times. Lots of parallels could be drawn even to our current time we are living (hint hint).
tboyd47 9y ago
The most significant demographic change for the city was actually not the Ottoman conquest, but its destruction and rule by the Western Christians ~200 years prior. These events took the population down from about 400,000 to about 35,000. It never recovered. By the time Mehmed II came along, it was only 50,000.
- ng12 9y ago
  Constantinople was just one city though. Antioch, Edessa, Trebizond were all major Greek cities which were conquered by the Turks.
  - richardknop 9y ago
    It’s pure speculation but if instead of sacking Constantinople and killing all of those people West made an alliance with East, Byzantine Empire could have survived, albeit losing substantial territories in the East. The situation of Eastern Romans was bad with them losing a lot of their eastern provinces but they still had some fight left in them.
    - 9y ago