4 ms·

I think you're very much mistaken about the risks involved. For example[0]. I really have a hard time understanding people who think the US is worse than China.

by jonyt 9y ago

I think you're very much mistaken about the risks involved. For example[0]. I really have a hard time understanding people who think the US is worse than China. China is orders of magnitude worse. Sure, the NSA may spy on your electronic communications but the level of invasive, oppressive surveillance is not even comparable[1]. As far as I know no people are in jail in the US for protesting the government's policies. In China that's not the case[2]. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/08/daughter-gui-minhai-swedish-bookseller-china-fears-jail https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/feb/08/daughter-gui-m... [1] https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chinas-surveillance-state-overwhelms-daily-life-1513700355 https://www.wsj.com/articles/twelve-days-in-xinjiang-how-chi... [2] https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/political-prisoners-china-database_us_589a1d83e4b09bd304be3300 https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/political-prisoners-chi...

thaumasiotes 9y ago
You may feel that from a human rights perspective China is morally inferior to the US. This has no bearing on whether you're better off being spied on by one or the other. If you're located in the US, the US government has an extreme amount of power over you and China has almost none; it's obviously better to be spied on by China. If you're in China, the logic reverses.
pythonaut_16 9y ago
Not to mention, with the NSA, the primary concern should be transparency and whether what they're doing is legal/allowed by the constitution. With China there are real national security concerns. We can have discussions and concerns about the NSA while also recognizing foreign nations pose an equal or worse threat. At least with the NSA there is some hope of reigning them in when they overstep.
- MertsA 9y ago
  > At least with the NSA there is some hope of reigning them in when they overstep. Honestly? The response to the Snowden leaks would seem to indicate the opposite.
- emodendroket 9y ago
  > With China there are real national security concerns. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Certainly China does face national security concerns.
code_duck 9y ago
The thing is since I am in the US, the Chinese government has very little power over me compared to the US. Since I am a US citizen, they also have very little interest in me compared to the USA. Concerns may differ for those in a different position than I am. My industry isn’t a target for espionage.
AdeptusAquinas 9y ago
His point wasn't that the US is worse than China, but that he lives in the US, and not China. As bad as china is, they are not likely to abduct him from the US. His own government however can do as they please.
eesmith 9y ago
I am not mistaken. I do not live in China and have no plans to visit. What can China do to someone a US citizen, living in the US, using a Huawei phone? Even if all telephone calls are monitored? What can the US do to someone in the same situation? Yes, others are in different circumstances and would make a different choice. Best of course would be to have no mass surveillance system.
- vadimberman 9y ago
  > What can China do to someone a US citizen, living in the US, using a Huawei phone? Even if all telephone calls are monitored? Sell personal details like credit card numbers or the SSN to a criminal syndicate. No one said they would spy to steal state secrets. Another possibility is identity theft. Read about the scandal involving Australian passports used by Israeli secret services in 2010: http://www.smh.com.au/national/mossad-hit-snares-australians-20100225-p60e.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/mossad-hit-snares-australians....
  - emodendroket 9y ago
    > Sell personal details like credit card numbers or the SSN to a criminal syndicate. That kind of ticky-tack stuff seems more like the work of organized crime ring than a national government of a state like China. Anyway, that stuff is subject to much more prosaic risks, like your being at the mercy of your dentist's office's online security set-up.
    - vadimberman 9y ago
      If they allegedly sold organs on the black market and force prisoners to play online games to earn virtual currencies (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoner...), it is not inconceivable they sell data.
    - ldiracdelta 9y ago
      The Chinese government is not monolithic. There are individual people in their government, any of which who have access can do nefarious things.
marnett 9y ago
I'm sure some could care less about Constitutional rights for those who are undocumented, but ICE most certainly is targeting activists for immigration reform, aka those protesting government policies.[1] "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist...." https://theintercept.com/2018/02/08/ice-nypd-ravi-ragbir-city-council/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/08/ice-nypd-ravi-ragbir-cit...
emodendroket 9y ago
I do not live in China and am unlikely to be extradited to China for anything I get up to online.

by jonyt 9y ago

thaumasiotes 9y ago

You may feel that from a human rights perspective China is morally inferior to the US. This has no bearing on whether you're better off being spied on by one or the other. If you're located in the US, the US government has an extreme amount of power over you and China has almost none; it's obviously better to be spied on by China. If you're in China, the logic reverses.

pythonaut_16 9y ago

Not to mention, with the NSA, the primary concern should be transparency and whether what they're doing is legal/allowed by the constitution. With China there are real national security concerns. We can have discussions and concerns about the NSA while also recognizing foreign nations pose an equal or worse threat. At least with the NSA there is some hope of reigning them in when they overstep.

MertsA 9y ago
> At least with the NSA there is some hope of reigning them in when they overstep. Honestly? The response to the Snowden leaks would seem to indicate the opposite.
emodendroket 9y ago
> With China there are real national security concerns. I'm not sure what you mean by this. Certainly China does face national security concerns.

code_duck 9y ago

The thing is since I am in the US, the Chinese government has very little power over me compared to the US. Since I am a US citizen, they also have very little interest in me compared to the USA. Concerns may differ for those in a different position than I am. My industry isn’t a target for espionage.

AdeptusAquinas 9y ago

His point wasn't that the US is worse than China, but that he lives in the US, and not China. As bad as china is, they are not likely to abduct him from the US. His own government however can do as they please.

eesmith 9y ago

I am not mistaken. I do not live in China and have no plans to visit. What can China do to someone a US citizen, living in the US, using a Huawei phone? Even if all telephone calls are monitored? What can the US do to someone in the same situation? Yes, others are in different circumstances and would make a different choice. Best of course would be to have no mass surveillance system.

vadimberman 9y ago
> What can China do to someone a US citizen, living in the US, using a Huawei phone? Even if all telephone calls are monitored? Sell personal details like credit card numbers or the SSN to a criminal syndicate. No one said they would spy to steal state secrets. Another possibility is identity theft. Read about the scandal involving Australian passports used by Israeli secret services in 2010: http://www.smh.com.au/national/mossad-hit-snares-australians-20100225-p60e.html http://www.smh.com.au/national/mossad-hit-snares-australians....
- emodendroket 9y ago
  > Sell personal details like credit card numbers or the SSN to a criminal syndicate. That kind of ticky-tack stuff seems more like the work of organized crime ring than a national government of a state like China. Anyway, that stuff is subject to much more prosaic risks, like your being at the mercy of your dentist's office's online security set-up.
  - vadimberman 9y ago
    If they allegedly sold organs on the black market and force prisoners to play online games to earn virtual currencies (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoners-internet-gaming-scam https://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/may/25/china-prisoner...), it is not inconceivable they sell data.
  - ldiracdelta 9y ago
    The Chinese government is not monolithic. There are individual people in their government, any of which who have access can do nefarious things.

marnett 9y ago

I'm sure some could care less about Constitutional rights for those who are undocumented, but ICE most certainly is targeting activists for immigration reform, aka those protesting government policies.[1] "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist...." https://theintercept.com/2018/02/08/ice-nypd-ravi-ragbir-city-council/ https://theintercept.com/2018/02/08/ice-nypd-ravi-ragbir-cit...

emodendroket 9y ago

I do not live in China and am unlikely to be extradited to China for anything I get up to online.