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I worry that it's sort of the same line of thinking that leads folks to skip vaccinations for their children, i.e. "What about the Tuskegee experiments and MKUl

I worry that it's sort of the same line of thinking that leads folks to skip vaccinations for their children, i.e. "What about the Tuskegee experiments and MKUltra? We can't trust government claims about health risks."

user982 9y ago
Claims without evidence, let alone proof, absolutely should not be trusted.
- rrdharan 9y ago
  I think that’s a fair distinction to make.
- twmb 9y ago
  Intelligence agencies generally avoid saying exactly why they suggest something and how they came to that conclusion. If agencies were fully open, adversaries would know what holes _they_ need to plug.
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    I'd go one step further and say that intelligence agencies rarely say what they mean. It would be naive to take any of their statements at face value.
lazerpants 9y ago
To be fair, anti-vaxxers do have legitimate examples of vaccines being harmful [0]. Calling them all out as crazies just reduces the communication between sides and doesn't help further vaccination promotion. [0] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-sho...
- fao_ 9y ago
  I don't know why you're being downvoted. The article you cite is a legitimate example of a case where vaccines have caused harm, you're not directly advocating that people stop having vaccinations.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    Because nobody who is anti-anti-vaxxer is claiming that vaccines have never caused harm.
- jstarfish 9y ago
  There is such a thing as overstating one's case though, especially when it comes to advocacy. To a rational mind, 200 years of practical evidence and the elimination of several deadly pathogens should outweigh a handful of legitimate but isolated counterexamples, but they argue against it anyway to the extent that they would risk their children contracting measles, tetanus, diptheria, mumps or rubella over an anecdotal correlation of autism...which even if causal, is difficult, time-consuming and expensive to treat, but not deadly. Yes, sometimes vaccine supplies get contaminated or have adverse effects, but so do batches of milk, spinach, peanut butter, and Chipotle burritos. It hardly justifies a concerted argument against any of these things. It is craziness, and no amount of logic, evidence, patience or negotiation ever convinces these people otherwise. We may as well dismiss them and move on.
  - KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
    https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm >During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating influenza viruses, it is possible that no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed. I'm crazy for not allowing myself to be injected with several strains of influenza virus when the most-optimistic estimates of efficacy are around ~40%. Calling it a flu "vaccine" seems like a misnomer to me, given the rapidly-mutating nature of the virus. >We may as well dismiss them and move on. This is HN.
helthanatos 9y ago
There are some vaccines that don't make sense. The flu vaccine does not make sense to get because you still have a chance of contracting that strain after getting it and you're still as likely to get other strains and it makes you go to the doctors during flu season (a not-so-smart time to go). As for this situation, the FCC and NSA should be the ones talking about it. Seeing network communications is easy enough (especially if you have a backdoor). Buying Huawei means you have the possibility of them spying on you and the US. I'm not too thrilled about surrendering random information to the spies...
- tialaramex 9y ago
  Before Flu season. Or, I mean maybe the US does it differently but as somebody who apparently has a compromised immune system (it had cancer a long time ago, fixing that is bad for it but good for not being dead) I got my jab months ago as usual, letter in the post "come get jab" phone up, pick a time "sharp prick coming" all done. The flu jab isn't very good, but, in most years it's better than nothing and it's pretty cheap for the government to give me a jab compared to hospitalisation if I get really sick.
- na85 9y ago
  Doctors defer to the experts when they need some javascript written. Maybe do the same when you're so clearly out of your depth?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
    This comment would have been better without the ad hominem. Perhaps something like: "maybe it makes sense for the average person to defer to a doctor's opinion with regard to flu vaccine".
- comex 9y ago
  In the US, you can walk in and get the flu shot at any of the big pharmacy chains; no need to visit a hospital or doctor's office.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
emodendroket 9y ago
But in this case we know with practical certainty that the NSA is still spying on us, don't we?
dang 9y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16379164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16379164 and marked it off-topic.

user982 9y ago

Claims without evidence, let alone proof, absolutely should not be trusted.

rrdharan 9y ago
I think that’s a fair distinction to make.
twmb 9y ago
Intelligence agencies generally avoid saying exactly why they suggest something and how they came to that conclusion. If agencies were fully open, adversaries would know what holes _they_ need to plug.
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  I'd go one step further and say that intelligence agencies rarely say what they mean. It would be naive to take any of their statements at face value.

lazerpants 9y ago

To be fair, anti-vaxxers do have legitimate examples of vaccines being harmful [0]. Calling them all out as crazies just reduces the communication between sides and doesn't help further vaccination promotion. [0] https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-shot-caused-narcolepsy https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2015/07/why-pandemic-flu-sho...

fao_ 9y ago
I don't know why you're being downvoted. The article you cite is a legitimate example of a case where vaccines have caused harm, you're not directly advocating that people stop having vaccinations.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  Because nobody who is anti-anti-vaxxer is claiming that vaccines have never caused harm.
jstarfish 9y ago
There is such a thing as overstating one's case though, especially when it comes to advocacy. To a rational mind, 200 years of practical evidence and the elimination of several deadly pathogens should outweigh a handful of legitimate but isolated counterexamples, but they argue against it anyway to the extent that they would risk their children contracting measles, tetanus, diptheria, mumps or rubella over an anecdotal correlation of autism...which even if causal, is difficult, time-consuming and expensive to treat, but not deadly. Yes, sometimes vaccine supplies get contaminated or have adverse effects, but so do batches of milk, spinach, peanut butter, and Chipotle burritos. It hardly justifies a concerted argument against any of these things. It is craziness, and no amount of logic, evidence, patience or negotiation ever convinces these people otherwise. We may as well dismiss them and move on.
- KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
  https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm >During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating influenza viruses, it is possible that no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed. I'm crazy for not allowing myself to be injected with several strains of influenza virus when the most-optimistic estimates of efficacy are around ~40%. Calling it a flu "vaccine" seems like a misnomer to me, given the rapidly-mutating nature of the virus. >We may as well dismiss them and move on. This is HN.

helthanatos 9y ago

There are some vaccines that don't make sense. The flu vaccine does not make sense to get because you still have a chance of contracting that strain after getting it and you're still as likely to get other strains and it makes you go to the doctors during flu season (a not-so-smart time to go). As for this situation, the FCC and NSA should be the ones talking about it. Seeing network communications is easy enough (especially if you have a backdoor). Buying Huawei means you have the possibility of them spying on you and the US. I'm not too thrilled about surrendering random information to the spies...

tialaramex 9y ago
Before Flu season. Or, I mean maybe the US does it differently but as somebody who apparently has a compromised immune system (it had cancer a long time ago, fixing that is bad for it but good for not being dead) I got my jab months ago as usual, letter in the post "come get jab" phone up, pick a time "sharp prick coming" all done. The flu jab isn't very good, but, in most years it's better than nothing and it's pretty cheap for the government to give me a jab compared to hospitalisation if I get really sick.
na85 9y ago
Doctors defer to the experts when they need some javascript written. Maybe do the same when you're so clearly out of your depth?
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  This comment would have been better without the ad hominem. Perhaps something like: "maybe it makes sense for the average person to defer to a doctor's opinion with regard to flu vaccine".
comex 9y ago
In the US, you can walk in and get the flu shot at any of the big pharmacy chains; no need to visit a hospital or doctor's office.
TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago

emodendroket 9y ago

But in this case we know with practical certainty that the NSA is still spying on us, don't we?

dang 9y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16379164 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16379164 and marked it off-topic.