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Wow, this seems like straight-up racist fearmongering. The Chinese have "infliltrated" our schools by attending and starting culturally oriented studies? What's

Wow, this seems like straight-up racist fearmongering. The Chinese have "infliltrated" our schools by attending and starting culturally oriented studies? What's wrong with setting up classes for studying Mandarin, the #1 most popular language on the planet?

rdtsc 9y ago
What if these were Russians and the title was "FBI Says Russian Operatives..." would you have said it's straight up racist fear-mongering? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...
- IntronExon 9y ago
  Probably the phrase “McCarthyism” would be used instead.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    Yap, agree, that's more appropriate perhaps. This whole "everything I don't agree with is racist" and anyone I don't agree with is a "nazi" is very easy to take too far. One one hand they have to be suspicious, because counterintelligence it's one of their duties. Especially after the OPM breach. On the other hand, there is a danger of them going overboard. This is a great example of that: http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-muslim-fbi-20151221-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-muslim-fbi-2... They send an undercover informant to a mosque in Irvine, CA. Undercover informant instead of listening and observing, starts spewing radical crap and recruiting people. The mosque reports him to the FBI. That was an awkward Monday morning meeting I bet. Or maybe business as usual, who knows...
    - RobertoG 9y ago
      There is a long tradition, specially by the CIA, of creating their next enemy while fighting the current one. I'm thinking, for instance, in the freedom fighters against the Russian invasion in Afghanistan, Noriega, weaponization of Iraq against Iran... we could keep going.
- platinumrad 9y ago
  Not technically "racist" but in my opinion much of the treatment of Russia in the media is highly prejudiced.
  - rdtsc 9y ago
    It's getting embarrassing at this point. It was a good PR campaign, but it has run its course by now it seems. https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/washpost-is-richly-rewarded-for-false-news-about-russia-threat-while-public-is-deceived/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/washpost-is-richly-rewar...
  - baq 9y ago
    as somebody whose country has been a puppet state of moscow for 50-ish years, the media is nowhere close to having the full picture, but in the opposite direction. tl;dr: please.
- Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
  I wasn't just reacting to the title, but the body too. If the whole article was just s/China/Russia/g I would react the same way. On a geopolitical scale China is probably a bigger threat to the United States than Russia these days anyway.
  - z2 9y ago
    Indeed, I'm frustrated in any of these situations where ambiguity seems purposeful. Is it "The Chinese" government? citizens? race? The article begins with Chinese government-sponsored operatives, which is OK, because at least it is a specific accusation that can be discussed. But then it immediately generalizes to list the number of Chinese nationals enrolled, perhaps to allude to the potential scale. (Your classmate or colleague could be a Chinese spy!) That to me seems a few steps away from "Well, I've read these reports about how the Chinese want to steal everything, so I'm going to pass on hiring this guy with the funny Asian name." or more extremely, "Well, we know that not that everyone is a bad guy, but for security, let's round them up into camps, just in case."
- PricelessValue 9y ago
  What if they were israelis? China, russia, britain and israel run the largest espionage rings in the US. If the FBI called out israel, I bet the media would call it racist.
- BeetleB 9y ago
  (Edit: My comment is about the fear-mongering part, not the racist part). >What if these were Russians and the title was "FBI Says Russian Operatives..." would you have said it's straight up racist fear-mongering? Yes, I would call it fear mongering. What exactly have these operatives done? What can these operatives do? International students are required to be registered full time, or they'll be in violation of their visa, and since 2001, universities are proactive in flagging these people down. They are only allowed to work 20 hours a week, and only on campus. Internships are allowed if part of their degree program. So it's not as if they are coming in and then running around doing heavy subversive stuff. As foreign students, they do not have accessive to anything any other student has access to. If a professor is doing anything classified, they need to get clearance for their students, and likely are not allowed Chinese/Russian students at all. In terms of their promoting their values/culture aggressively: Well join the club! They're doing exactly what every other group on campus is doing (many with support from their embassies). But to get to the original statement: Yes, it is fear mongering because the article failed to indicate any kind of damage being caused that is beyond the norm for groups on campus. Industrial espionage? Show me some proof or examples. This is pretty much the same as saying "Beware! Commies on campus!" Or "Beware! Muslims on campus!" or "Beware! Abortionists on campus!"
  - walshemj 9y ago
    You know spies generally don't fill in tax returns - though one Russian illegal in the UK ran a very successful one armed bandit / pinball company as part of his cover.
    - BeetleB 9y ago
      Failing to see the relevance of tax returns not being filled. I'll ask my original question. Have these "operatives" done anything that is not particularly unusual compared to other student groups? Until they have, this fits the very description of fear mongering. You don't magically have access to anything just by entering the US.
      - walshemj 9y ago
- geofft 9y ago
  "Xenophobic" is probably a better word than "racist" in both cases, but yes, if it's about students it's fearmongering. The OPM problem was not about students, and in one case it was about people physically located in China, unlike students who are visiting the US. If you're giving unrestricted access to a database of personal info on Americans to grad students, you have bigger problems regardless of their nationality. Find people where you have a documented history of them being trustworthy. And if necessary, require them to get clearance, that's what clearance is for.
nyolfen 9y ago
presumably the language classes are not the activity they are worried about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institu...
- seandougall 9y ago
  They don’t seem to be terribly clear on what they are worried about, if this article is to be taken at face value. The closest thing to a legitimate concern they can manage to cough up is that China might be stealing American research — but if that’s the case, why aren’t we more worried about other countries (say, ones that have less in the way of their own research resources than China)? Edit: thanks for adding the link about CI — but I thought that seemed like kind of a sidebar in the article. They sound more generally concerned about the very presence of Chinese students.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    > why aren’t we more worried about other countries China is our geopolitical competitor. Other countries aren’t.
  - edraferi 9y ago
    From Page 12 of the DNI's statement [0] in yesterday's hearing: China, for example, has acquired proprietary technology and early-stage ideas through cyberenabled means. At the same time, some actors use largely legitimate, legal transfers and relationships to gain access to research fields, experts, and key enabling industrial processes that could, over time, erode America’s long-term competitive advantages [0] https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/os-dcoats-021318.PDF https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...
    - rhizome 9y ago
      That could be said about any student who is a citizen of another country.
HoppedUpMenace 9y ago
It states pretty clearly that there are Chinese operatives that are posing as students, professors, ect... Not that every student or professor is an operative.
txru 9y ago
There's no need to jump straight to racism here, given that this is coming from the director of the FBI. The concern is that these groups report to the Chinese government, which would give the Chinese government the ability to control and suppress discussion of its policies abroad-- which is a bad thing.

rdtsc 9y ago

What if these were Russians and the title was "FBI Says Russian Operatives..." would you have said it's straight up racist fear-mongering? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management_data_breach https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Office_of_Personnel_Management...

IntronExon 9y ago
Probably the phrase “McCarthyism” would be used instead.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  Yap, agree, that's more appropriate perhaps. This whole "everything I don't agree with is racist" and anyone I don't agree with is a "nazi" is very easy to take too far. One one hand they have to be suspicious, because counterintelligence it's one of their duties. Especially after the OPM breach. On the other hand, there is a danger of them going overboard. This is a great example of that: http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-muslim-fbi-20151221-story.html http://www.latimes.com/local/orangecounty/la-me-muslim-fbi-2... They send an undercover informant to a mosque in Irvine, CA. Undercover informant instead of listening and observing, starts spewing radical crap and recruiting people. The mosque reports him to the FBI. That was an awkward Monday morning meeting I bet. Or maybe business as usual, who knows...
  - RobertoG 9y ago
    There is a long tradition, specially by the CIA, of creating their next enemy while fighting the current one. I'm thinking, for instance, in the freedom fighters against the Russian invasion in Afghanistan, Noriega, weaponization of Iraq against Iran... we could keep going.
platinumrad 9y ago
Not technically "racist" but in my opinion much of the treatment of Russia in the media is highly prejudiced.
- rdtsc 9y ago
  It's getting embarrassing at this point. It was a good PR campaign, but it has run its course by now it seems. https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/washpost-is-richly-rewarded-for-false-news-about-russia-threat-while-public-is-deceived/ https://theintercept.com/2017/01/04/washpost-is-richly-rewar...
- baq 9y ago
  as somebody whose country has been a puppet state of moscow for 50-ish years, the media is nowhere close to having the full picture, but in the opposite direction. tl;dr: please.
Sir_Cmpwn 9y ago
I wasn't just reacting to the title, but the body too. If the whole article was just s/China/Russia/g I would react the same way. On a geopolitical scale China is probably a bigger threat to the United States than Russia these days anyway.
- z2 9y ago
  Indeed, I'm frustrated in any of these situations where ambiguity seems purposeful. Is it "The Chinese" government? citizens? race? The article begins with Chinese government-sponsored operatives, which is OK, because at least it is a specific accusation that can be discussed. But then it immediately generalizes to list the number of Chinese nationals enrolled, perhaps to allude to the potential scale. (Your classmate or colleague could be a Chinese spy!) That to me seems a few steps away from "Well, I've read these reports about how the Chinese want to steal everything, so I'm going to pass on hiring this guy with the funny Asian name." or more extremely, "Well, we know that not that everyone is a bad guy, but for security, let's round them up into camps, just in case."
PricelessValue 9y ago
What if they were israelis? China, russia, britain and israel run the largest espionage rings in the US. If the FBI called out israel, I bet the media would call it racist.
BeetleB 9y ago
(Edit: My comment is about the fear-mongering part, not the racist part). >What if these were Russians and the title was "FBI Says Russian Operatives..." would you have said it's straight up racist fear-mongering? Yes, I would call it fear mongering. What exactly have these operatives done? What can these operatives do? International students are required to be registered full time, or they'll be in violation of their visa, and since 2001, universities are proactive in flagging these people down. They are only allowed to work 20 hours a week, and only on campus. Internships are allowed if part of their degree program. So it's not as if they are coming in and then running around doing heavy subversive stuff. As foreign students, they do not have accessive to anything any other student has access to. If a professor is doing anything classified, they need to get clearance for their students, and likely are not allowed Chinese/Russian students at all. In terms of their promoting their values/culture aggressively: Well join the club! They're doing exactly what every other group on campus is doing (many with support from their embassies). But to get to the original statement: Yes, it is fear mongering because the article failed to indicate any kind of damage being caused that is beyond the norm for groups on campus. Industrial espionage? Show me some proof or examples. This is pretty much the same as saying "Beware! Commies on campus!" Or "Beware! Muslims on campus!" or "Beware! Abortionists on campus!"
- walshemj 9y ago
  You know spies generally don't fill in tax returns - though one Russian illegal in the UK ran a very successful one armed bandit / pinball company as part of his cover.
  - BeetleB 9y ago
    Failing to see the relevance of tax returns not being filled. I'll ask my original question. Have these "operatives" done anything that is not particularly unusual compared to other student groups? Until they have, this fits the very description of fear mongering. You don't magically have access to anything just by entering the US.
    - walshemj 9y ago
geofft 9y ago
"Xenophobic" is probably a better word than "racist" in both cases, but yes, if it's about students it's fearmongering. The OPM problem was not about students, and in one case it was about people physically located in China, unlike students who are visiting the US. If you're giving unrestricted access to a database of personal info on Americans to grad students, you have bigger problems regardless of their nationality. Find people where you have a documented history of them being trustworthy. And if necessary, require them to get clearance, that's what clearance is for.

nyolfen 9y ago

presumably the language classes are not the activity they are worried about. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institutes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Confucius_Institu...

seandougall 9y ago
They don’t seem to be terribly clear on what they are worried about, if this article is to be taken at face value. The closest thing to a legitimate concern they can manage to cough up is that China might be stealing American research — but if that’s the case, why aren’t we more worried about other countries (say, ones that have less in the way of their own research resources than China)? Edit: thanks for adding the link about CI — but I thought that seemed like kind of a sidebar in the article. They sound more generally concerned about the very presence of Chinese students.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  > why aren’t we more worried about other countries China is our geopolitical competitor. Other countries aren’t.
- edraferi 9y ago
  From Page 12 of the DNI's statement [0] in yesterday's hearing: China, for example, has acquired proprietary technology and early-stage ideas through cyberenabled means. At the same time, some actors use largely legitimate, legal transfers and relationships to gain access to research fields, experts, and key enabling industrial processes that could, over time, erode America’s long-term competitive advantages [0] https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/documents/os-dcoats-021318.PDF https://www.intelligence.senate.gov/sites/default/files/docu...
  - rhizome 9y ago
    That could be said about any student who is a citizen of another country.

HoppedUpMenace 9y ago

It states pretty clearly that there are Chinese operatives that are posing as students, professors, ect... Not that every student or professor is an operative.

txru 9y ago

There's no need to jump straight to racism here, given that this is coming from the director of the FBI. The concern is that these groups report to the Chinese government, which would give the Chinese government the ability to control and suppress discussion of its policies abroad-- which is a bad thing.