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As with many small nitpicks, very interesting. Do I understand correctly that "girl" is a similar thing, where it might naturally be expected to be female, so d

As with many small nitpicks, very interesting. Do I understand correctly that "girl" is a similar thing, where it might naturally be expected to be female, so die Maedchen, but is actually das (neuter) due to the -chen? And/or that all -chen words would be das?

lb1lf 9y ago
Not a native German speaker, but yes - it is my understanding that any German word ending in -chen is neuter. (My guess: as the -chen ending is used to signify that it is a smaller version of the stem of the word, this takes precedence over the gender of the stem - and then some German at some point decided that such smaller items were neuters and be done with it.)
- Vinnl 9y ago
  Same holds true in Dutch - although male and female words share the same article ("de"), neuter words use a different one ("het"), diminutive words (ending in -je) are always neuter, and we usually say "meisje" for girls. Hence girl is neuter.
  - lb1lf 9y ago
    Thank you! I was wondering whether I could use ‘diminutive’ or not in that context. I happen to be Norwegian, by the way - and Dutch happens to be quite fascinating in that there are enough similarities with Norwegian and German for me to be able to read Dutch well enough to understand what is going on - I’d never read a novel in Dutch, but newspapers are fair game.
    - Vinnl 9y ago
      To be fair, I'm not sure if I could either, so don't assume it is valid just because I used it. I tried to look it up, but didn't get anything conclusive about it within two minutes so I just assumed people would understand what I meant. It's really fascinating that you're able to understand Dutch newspapers though! Despite knowing quite some German as well, Norwegian doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I can correctly guess some Swedish (which I seem to recall is similar?) words when written down some of the time, but far from often enough to be able to follow newspaper articles.
      - jdmichal 9y ago
        It's definitely a diminutive form, along with -lein, which operates the same way regarding gender and umlaut.
rowyourboat 9y ago
Yes. "Mädchen" is the diminutive of "Magd", and thus neuter, as are all words in the diminutive. This not only goes for the diminutive suffix -chen, but for all German diminutive suffixes.
- jasonmp85 9y ago
  FWIW I believe “die Fräulein” is accepted, despite the -lein suffix. Sure, it’s accepted in _addition_ to “das […]”, but IIRC you may sound a bit odd with the “das” in that specific case, no?
  - ohlookabird 9y ago
    As a native German speaker, "die Fräulein" sounds odd to me, while "das Fräulein" is perfectly fine.
    - jasonmp85 9y ago
      I rescind my comment!
  - rowyourboat 9y ago
    > you may sound a bit odd with the “das” in that specific case, no? No. As a native speaker, I would consider "die Fräulein" incorrect in the singular. "Die Fräulein" is the correct plural of "das Fräulein", however. Regardless, at least in Germany, "Fräulein" is considered archaic, bordering on offensive.
vog 9y ago
*> die Maedchen (Mädchen), but is actually das (neuter) due to the -chen Yes, that's true. Roughly speaking, little and cute means neuter. [1] To confuse you even more, however, note that "die Mädchen" is still correct, but for an entirely different reason: It means plural! ("the girls"), because it happens that the plural of "Mädchen" is the same word "Mädchen", and that the plural neuter noun marker "die" is exactly the same as the sigular female noun marker "die". (Moreover, also the male and female plural noun marker is "die".) [1] Now that I think more if it, that's quite progressive in terms of gender-equal language and early childhood. (But many other aspects of the German language aren't, so don't expect too much here.)

lb1lf 9y ago

Not a native German speaker, but yes - it is my understanding that any German word ending in -chen is neuter. (My guess: as the -chen ending is used to signify that it is a smaller version of the stem of the word, this takes precedence over the gender of the stem - and then some German at some point decided that such smaller items were neuters and be done with it.)

Vinnl 9y ago
Same holds true in Dutch - although male and female words share the same article ("de"), neuter words use a different one ("het"), diminutive words (ending in -je) are always neuter, and we usually say "meisje" for girls. Hence girl is neuter.
- lb1lf 9y ago
  Thank you! I was wondering whether I could use ‘diminutive’ or not in that context. I happen to be Norwegian, by the way - and Dutch happens to be quite fascinating in that there are enough similarities with Norwegian and German for me to be able to read Dutch well enough to understand what is going on - I’d never read a novel in Dutch, but newspapers are fair game.
  - Vinnl 9y ago
    To be fair, I'm not sure if I could either, so don't assume it is valid just because I used it. I tried to look it up, but didn't get anything conclusive about it within two minutes so I just assumed people would understand what I meant. It's really fascinating that you're able to understand Dutch newspapers though! Despite knowing quite some German as well, Norwegian doesn't really make a lot of sense to me. I can correctly guess some Swedish (which I seem to recall is similar?) words when written down some of the time, but far from often enough to be able to follow newspaper articles.
    - jdmichal 9y ago
      It's definitely a diminutive form, along with -lein, which operates the same way regarding gender and umlaut.

rowyourboat 9y ago

Yes. "Mädchen" is the diminutive of "Magd", and thus neuter, as are all words in the diminutive. This not only goes for the diminutive suffix -chen, but for all German diminutive suffixes.

jasonmp85 9y ago
FWIW I believe “die Fräulein” is accepted, despite the -lein suffix. Sure, it’s accepted in _addition_ to “das […]”, but IIRC you may sound a bit odd with the “das” in that specific case, no?
- ohlookabird 9y ago
  As a native German speaker, "die Fräulein" sounds odd to me, while "das Fräulein" is perfectly fine.
  - jasonmp85 9y ago
    I rescind my comment!
- rowyourboat 9y ago
  > you may sound a bit odd with the “das” in that specific case, no? No. As a native speaker, I would consider "die Fräulein" incorrect in the singular. "Die Fräulein" is the correct plural of "das Fräulein", however. Regardless, at least in Germany, "Fräulein" is considered archaic, bordering on offensive.

vog 9y ago

*> die Maedchen (Mädchen), but is actually das (neuter) due to the -chen Yes, that's true. Roughly speaking, little and cute means neuter. [1] To confuse you even more, however, note that "die Mädchen" is still correct, but for an entirely different reason: It means plural! ("the girls"), because it happens that the plural of "Mädchen" is the same word "Mädchen", and that the plural neuter noun marker "die" is exactly the same as the sigular female noun marker "die". (Moreover, also the male and female plural noun marker is "die".) [1] Now that I think more if it, that's quite progressive in terms of gender-equal language and early childhood. (But many other aspects of the German language aren't, so don't expect too much here.)