8 ms·

Dunning-Kruger called, they want their overblown ego steamroller back.

musage 9y ago
The Dunning-Kruger effect is a bias and as such deals with probabilities. It doesn't mean any given individual says they're the best (in their neck of the woods) at something is definitely wrong.
Retric 9y ago
People get better with practice. So, yes senior developers tend to be significantly faster coders. It's not that they do everything faster, but by getting better at the hard parts they finish complex tasks vastly more quickly. PS: Most people have never worked closely with someone with 25+ years of experience, but the difference is staggering.
- virgilp 9y ago
  Well, I am someone with 25 years of experience, does that count as "worked closely with"? Good junior devs are... well, by definition, good. They're just younger, and less experienced - but every bit as smart as you are, and pretty skilled in the art of coding. If anything, they have more time than I do and are a lot more eager to "prove themselves". I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster"...
  - g051051 9y ago
    > I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster" I do, at least partly. I can code so much faster that my cost per feature is lower than a junior dev.
    - ranci 9y ago
      Your cost is less by being paid more? Seems legit
      - bmurphy1976 9y ago
        His projects are most likely successful and profitable. The junior devs is probably a comparative catastrophe. I honestly don't get where this junior devs are faster meme is coming from, it sure doesn't represent my experience.
      - g051051 9y ago
        My cost is less by doing more in the same amount of time.
        ranci 9y ago
        Which is offset by the fact that you're paid significantly more
        g051051 9y ago
        The point you keep missing is that the amount I'm paid more isn't equivalent to the amount more I can do than a junior dev. I perform at some X more than the junior dev, but I'm not paid X more.
        ranci 9y ago
        It's good to know you have such a high view of yourself in comparison to others
        g051051 9y ago
        It's not my view, it's my manager's view, as well as simple math.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Good junior devs can also have 15+ years of non professional experience from starting as a kid. It's a wide enough bucket that talking about just the top end is very misleading, however the median jr dev is relatively slow and bug prone.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      If they have not done any real coding before going to uni I could understand - this BTW is what the raspberry pi was originally created for.
- WalterSear 9y ago
  I have. It was staggering how they had managed to survive for 25+ years. Every person is different.
  - Retric 9y ago
    He may have been far worse 25 years ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Having not worked with the same person for 25 years I can only speak of the average case.
g051051 9y ago
I can point to my well documented track record: code reviews, bonuses, promotions, code longevity, metrics, etc. as evidence. I can code multiple features in the time that a junior dev does one, even with me mentoring them. That doesn't mean they're bad, or even worse than average. It just means that after a career spent honing my craft, I'm much better than average.
- purerandomness 9y ago
  I wasn't questioning your seniority. I pointed out how you decided to pick out a totally irrelevant, rhetorical sentence out of all points that OP made, and then decided to refute that, by claiming how much experience you have, and setting up yourself center stage, instead of adding value to the actual discussion topic at hand, which is the coaching gap.
  - g051051 9y ago
    I directly disputed the central thesis that OP (the person I was responding to, not the article) was putting forth, that senior developers shouldn't be coding: > You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! > "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do What other "points" did OP make?
    - purerandomness 9y ago
      Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'. The topic is about a lack of mentoring for junior devs. You being a certified 100x rockstar developer is totally fine but irrelevant, because you don't scale. What would scale is if you were to start coaching junior devs, because if you don't, all the juniors will keep reinventing 'left-pad' in this week's ES201x iteration, while your retirement keeps getting closer. Instead of adding to the discussion on how to solve the coaching gap, you decided to defend your coding efficiency and how you deliver features faster than a Junior Dev. You missed the point completely. You're part of the problem the article addresses, don't you realize?

The Dunning-Kruger effect is a bias and as such deals with probabilities. It doesn't mean any given individual says they're the best (in their neck of the woods) at something is definitely wrong.

Retric 9y ago

People get better with practice. So, yes senior developers tend to be significantly faster coders. It's not that they do everything faster, but by getting better at the hard parts they finish complex tasks vastly more quickly. PS: Most people have never worked closely with someone with 25+ years of experience, but the difference is staggering.

virgilp 9y ago
Well, I am someone with 25 years of experience, does that count as "worked closely with"? Good junior devs are... well, by definition, good. They're just younger, and less experienced - but every bit as smart as you are, and pretty skilled in the art of coding. If anything, they have more time than I do and are a lot more eager to "prove themselves". I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster"...
- g051051 9y ago
  > I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster" I do, at least partly. I can code so much faster that my cost per feature is lower than a junior dev.
  - ranci 9y ago
    Your cost is less by being paid more? Seems legit
    - bmurphy1976 9y ago
      His projects are most likely successful and profitable. The junior devs is probably a comparative catastrophe. I honestly don't get where this junior devs are faster meme is coming from, it sure doesn't represent my experience.
    - g051051 9y ago
      My cost is less by doing more in the same amount of time.
      - ranci 9y ago
        Which is offset by the fact that you're paid significantly more
        g051051 9y ago
        The point you keep missing is that the amount I'm paid more isn't equivalent to the amount more I can do than a junior dev. I perform at some X more than the junior dev, but I'm not paid X more.
        ranci 9y ago
        It's good to know you have such a high view of yourself in comparison to others
        g051051 9y ago
        It's not my view, it's my manager's view, as well as simple math.
- Retric 9y ago
  Good junior devs can also have 15+ years of non professional experience from starting as a kid. It's a wide enough bucket that talking about just the top end is very misleading, however the median jr dev is relatively slow and bug prone.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    If they have not done any real coding before going to uni I could understand - this BTW is what the raspberry pi was originally created for.
WalterSear 9y ago
I have. It was staggering how they had managed to survive for 25+ years. Every person is different.
- Retric 9y ago
  He may have been far worse 25 years ago. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Having not worked with the same person for 25 years I can only speak of the average case.

g051051 9y ago

I can point to my well documented track record: code reviews, bonuses, promotions, code longevity, metrics, etc. as evidence. I can code multiple features in the time that a junior dev does one, even with me mentoring them. That doesn't mean they're bad, or even worse than average. It just means that after a career spent honing my craft, I'm much better than average.

purerandomness 9y ago
I wasn't questioning your seniority. I pointed out how you decided to pick out a totally irrelevant, rhetorical sentence out of all points that OP made, and then decided to refute that, by claiming how much experience you have, and setting up yourself center stage, instead of adding value to the actual discussion topic at hand, which is the coaching gap.
- g051051 9y ago
  I directly disputed the central thesis that OP (the person I was responding to, not the article) was putting forth, that senior developers shouldn't be coding: > You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! > "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do What other "points" did OP make?
  - purerandomness 9y ago
    Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'. The topic is about a lack of mentoring for junior devs. You being a certified 100x rockstar developer is totally fine but irrelevant, because you don't scale. What would scale is if you were to start coaching junior devs, because if you don't, all the juniors will keep reinventing 'left-pad' in this week's ES201x iteration, while your retirement keeps getting closer. Instead of adding to the discussion on how to solve the coaching gap, you decided to defend your coding efficiency and how you deliver features faster than a Junior Dev. You missed the point completely. You're part of the problem the article addresses, don't you realize?