4 ms·

There's nothing stopping end users from using non-Google search engine. Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo... they're all viable products that you can use to accomplish 9

by r3bl 9y ago

There's nothing stopping end users from using non-Google search engine. Bing, Yahoo, DuckDuckGo... they're all viable products that you can use to accomplish 90ish% of what Google could find, and maybe even more now that Google strips historical data (see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16153840 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16153840, from a month ago). Since you're mentioning SEO, I just checked and 15.8% of searches for my website came from non-Google search engines in the last month (in my case, Yandex and DDG are the most popular ones). Bing is also taking a huge chunk of the traffic thanks to Windows 10 using it in the start menu, whether you like it or not. And while one example isn't viable enough to make general statements, it's clear that alternatives do exist and are used extensively. It's a product that's superior when compared to its competitors. It's not a monopoly though.

matt4077 9y ago
Google's market is advertising. If you want to advertise in search, you do not have the freedom to avoid Google and just spend all your money with Bing.
akvadrako 9y ago
Bing, Yahoo and DuckDuckGo are not a list of competitors. Yahoo is based on Bing & Google¹. DDG uses a lot of sources, but I believe the bulk of results come from Yahoo and Bing. I agree there are options, but they are Bing and Yandex. The others are just mashups. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Search
KMag 9y ago
> There's nothing stopping end users from using non-Google search engine. Just so everyone's clear, monopoly doesn't mean (nearly) 100% market share; it means a large enough market share to be able to manipulate the market. So, to elaborate on your first point, I think you're saying that the ease of switching search engines means that a market share necessary to manipulate the search market would be near 100%, much higher than Google has. Am I reading you correctly?
- ams6110 9y ago
  Do you have an economic or legal reference for that definition of "monopoly"? Since search engines are all free to use, many of the criteria of a monopoly seem hard to apply, but the classic defintions I'm familiar with include things such as "no reasonable substitute" which is not the case for Google Search.
  - icebraining 9y ago
    Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
  - bluGill 9y ago
    From wikipedia The lowest yet market share of a company considered "dominant" in the EU was 39.7% Google is dominate for sure.
kuschku 9y ago
Something can be a monopoly in market, but not in another. Google isn't a monopoly for users, it's a monopoly for developers. You can't get users without being on Google. Only if I can replace one company with another, at roughly equal results, can the market be considered competitive. I can't delist my site on Google and replace those users with Bing users. If each search engine had only 5% or 10% of the market, though, I could. And I might. That's what a competitive market looks like. Google is, from that perspective, a monopoly.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  I would tend to agree, but not their email. That's easily replaced.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    Is it? Can you simply avoid emailing GMail users and continue? Not really. And yet, thanks to their broken spam filters, you may have to.
    - RobertRoberts 9y ago
      >Can you simply avoid emailing GMail users and continue? No, but you can learn their rules and abide by them. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I tested for why my emails were not delivered, found out the problem areas and fixed them. And now they are delivered. I have more issues with companies that run their own mail server or use smaller email companies that have overly aggressive spam filters and don't even know what a white list is. I have less issues with Gmail than them. Try making your emails text only, and get them to deliver. Google even provides guidelines on how to get email to be delivered. I suspect you have not found these rules yet (lmgtfy.com) or have competing interests that forbid you from following them.
- bduerst 9y ago
  You're describing a monopsony, not a monopoly. And while Google has monopsonic power, it isn't the sole player in the market so it's not a true monopsony. Facebook, Twitter, and other channels have control as well. If you still disagree, look at how widespread Facebook's open graph standards are as proof of the market catering to these companies' purchasing power. Or just look at the header on the article: https://i.imgur.com/XlGgTaw.png https://i.imgur.com/XlGgTaw.png

by r3bl 9y ago

matt4077 9y ago

Google's market is advertising. If you want to advertise in search, you do not have the freedom to avoid Google and just spend all your money with Bing.

akvadrako 9y ago

Bing, Yahoo and DuckDuckGo are not a list of competitors. Yahoo is based on Bing & Google¹. DDG uses a lot of sources, but I believe the bulk of results come from Yahoo and Bing. I agree there are options, but they are Bing and Yandex. The others are just mashups. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Search https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yahoo!_Search

KMag 9y ago

> There's nothing stopping end users from using non-Google search engine. Just so everyone's clear, monopoly doesn't mean (nearly) 100% market share; it means a large enough market share to be able to manipulate the market. So, to elaborate on your first point, I think you're saying that the ease of switching search engines means that a market share necessary to manipulate the search market would be near 100%, much higher than Google has. Am I reading you correctly?

ams6110 9y ago
Do you have an economic or legal reference for that definition of "monopoly"? Since search engines are all free to use, many of the criteria of a monopoly seem hard to apply, but the classic defintions I'm familiar with include things such as "no reasonable substitute" which is not the case for Google Search.
- icebraining 9y ago
  Courts do not require a literal monopoly before applying rules for single firm conduct; that term is used as shorthand for a firm with significant and durable market power — that is, the long term ability to raise price or exclude competitors. That is how that term is used here: a "monopolist" is a firm with significant and durable market power. https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-antitrust-laws/single-firm-conduct/monopolization-defined https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/competition-guidance/guide-a...
- bluGill 9y ago
  From wikipedia The lowest yet market share of a company considered "dominant" in the EU was 39.7% Google is dominate for sure.

kuschku 9y ago

Something can be a monopoly in market, but not in another. Google isn't a monopoly for users, it's a monopoly for developers. You can't get users without being on Google. Only if I can replace one company with another, at roughly equal results, can the market be considered competitive. I can't delist my site on Google and replace those users with Bing users. If each search engine had only 5% or 10% of the market, though, I could. And I might. That's what a competitive market looks like. Google is, from that perspective, a monopoly.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
I would tend to agree, but not their email. That's easily replaced.
- kuschku 9y ago
  Is it? Can you simply avoid emailing GMail users and continue? Not really. And yet, thanks to their broken spam filters, you may have to.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    >Can you simply avoid emailing GMail users and continue? No, but you can learn their rules and abide by them. As I mentioned in a previous comment, I tested for why my emails were not delivered, found out the problem areas and fixed them. And now they are delivered. I have more issues with companies that run their own mail server or use smaller email companies that have overly aggressive spam filters and don't even know what a white list is. I have less issues with Gmail than them. Try making your emails text only, and get them to deliver. Google even provides guidelines on how to get email to be delivered. I suspect you have not found these rules yet (lmgtfy.com) or have competing interests that forbid you from following them.
bduerst 9y ago
You're describing a monopsony, not a monopoly. And while Google has monopsonic power, it isn't the sole player in the market so it's not a true monopsony. Facebook, Twitter, and other channels have control as well. If you still disagree, look at how widespread Facebook's open graph standards are as proof of the market catering to these companies' purchasing power. Or just look at the header on the article: https://i.imgur.com/XlGgTaw.png https://i.imgur.com/XlGgTaw.png