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This is a value for value business relationship. It’s not mercenary for “coders” to capture more of the value that they created in the first place. An employer

This is a value for value business relationship. It’s not mercenary for “coders” to capture more of the value that they created in the first place. An employer is not entitled to get cheaper labor just because it helps them get richer.

vinceguidry 9y ago
Like I told the other commenter, if you want to capture more of the value, you need to own more of the business. Look, if we're talking giant corporations here, I agree with you. The company isn't going to miss another $5k/year. But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away. Their budget is what they live and die on, and surplus profit typically gets rolled back into the business, not wasted on dividends. You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table.
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  I understand what you are saying especially when it comes to a "lifestyle" business that keeps an employee on when they have a bad year. The employee trades some salary for security. I'm not so sure how common that sort of business is though. You've got the start-ups that are focused on a big exit to pay their investors and let the founders cash out. They (and their VC investors) want their employees to sacrifice/invest/commit "like a founder" - but without the founders upside. You've also got the large businesses that will, in your own words, "keep you until they can outsource your job away" for a little more profit. This is the reality for developers and they have slowly decided to seek their fair share to the consternation of businesses that were used to adding that value to their own bottom line. When I hear someone saying that "coders" (or sometimes "code monkeys") shouldn't be focused on salary I hear someone who (A) doesn't respect my profession and (B) doesn't see why they shouldn't be able to exploit me. (When it comes to my own clients, I do leave money on the the table. I could justify it by saying that I do it "in the interests of a long term relationships" but in reality I'm emotionally invested in their success and I want their projects to succeed.)
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    I'm as salary focused as the next guy. But my approach to earning more is to bring more value, not to play the zero-sum game of hardball negotiations.
    - retbull 9y ago
      I have brought additional value to a company and had them just tell me no. No they were not going to give me a raise. I had to jump ship to get a raise. You're stance is nice from an ideal CEO perspective but it never works.
    - chrisbennet 9y ago
      That's not a bad approach but...from my perspective, why should I work for a company that either doesn't value my contributions or can't capitalize on them? The money I leave on the table doesn't go to charity after all, it goes in someone else's pocket or is invested to the benefit of the business owners. To paraphrase on old saying "Developers go where they are wanted and stay where they're well treated." Look at from a developers perspective; why should they bust their hump to deliver 20% more value only to be rewarded with a 3% increase in salary? ("Gee Chris, I would love to give more but company policy...") Why shouldn't I go someplace that does value my efforts?
      - vinceguidry 9y ago
        The only way to fix the structural inequality of the employer-employee relationship is to have your own business. It is not a business relationship. It's an evolution on the lord-serf relationship. > Look at from a developers perspective; why should they bust their hump to deliver 20% more value only to be rewarded with a 3% increase in salary? ("Gee Chris, I would love to give more but company policy...") Why shouldn't I go someplace that does value my efforts? You should not bust your hump. Deploy adroit political acumen to reduce your workload. I can't remember the last time I busted my hump on a development job. But if you want more money, you absolutely should go somewhere else. What I'm saying is that expecting your existing company to be the vehicle for that advancement is naive at best. I requested, and got, two large raises at my last job. I was still underpaid at the end of it. I'm underpaid now, even though I got another massive raise when I switched companies. The reality is, you get a market salary from the market, not from any one company. A company is either going to be open to paying market rates or they won't be. You have to make the decision whether to accept that. Playing hardball with a company that's not prepared to pay you market just won't get you anywhere. Find a company that's prepared to pay market.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  "But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away." They're going to do that anyway. "You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table." If my extra $5k is the difference between live and die, then the company was failing anyway, and I should take as much as I can before the company closes, to tide me over while I look for a new job.
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    $5k over the course of a year. It's not a lot of money.

vinceguidry 9y ago

Like I told the other commenter, if you want to capture more of the value, you need to own more of the business. Look, if we're talking giant corporations here, I agree with you. The company isn't going to miss another $5k/year. But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away. Their budget is what they live and die on, and surplus profit typically gets rolled back into the business, not wasted on dividends. You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table.

chrisbennet 9y ago
I understand what you are saying especially when it comes to a "lifestyle" business that keeps an employee on when they have a bad year. The employee trades some salary for security. I'm not so sure how common that sort of business is though. You've got the start-ups that are focused on a big exit to pay their investors and let the founders cash out. They (and their VC investors) want their employees to sacrifice/invest/commit "like a founder" - but without the founders upside. You've also got the large businesses that will, in your own words, "keep you until they can outsource your job away" for a little more profit. This is the reality for developers and they have slowly decided to seek their fair share to the consternation of businesses that were used to adding that value to their own bottom line. When I hear someone saying that "coders" (or sometimes "code monkeys") shouldn't be focused on salary I hear someone who (A) doesn't respect my profession and (B) doesn't see why they shouldn't be able to exploit me. (When it comes to my own clients, I do leave money on the the table. I could justify it by saying that I do it "in the interests of a long term relationships" but in reality I'm emotionally invested in their success and I want their projects to succeed.)
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  I'm as salary focused as the next guy. But my approach to earning more is to bring more value, not to play the zero-sum game of hardball negotiations.
  - retbull 9y ago
    I have brought additional value to a company and had them just tell me no. No they were not going to give me a raise. I had to jump ship to get a raise. You're stance is nice from an ideal CEO perspective but it never works.
  - chrisbennet 9y ago
    That's not a bad approach but...from my perspective, why should I work for a company that either doesn't value my contributions or can't capitalize on them? The money I leave on the table doesn't go to charity after all, it goes in someone else's pocket or is invested to the benefit of the business owners. To paraphrase on old saying "Developers go where they are wanted and stay where they're well treated." Look at from a developers perspective; why should they bust their hump to deliver 20% more value only to be rewarded with a 3% increase in salary? ("Gee Chris, I would love to give more but company policy...") Why shouldn't I go someplace that does value my efforts?
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      The only way to fix the structural inequality of the employer-employee relationship is to have your own business. It is not a business relationship. It's an evolution on the lord-serf relationship. > Look at from a developers perspective; why should they bust their hump to deliver 20% more value only to be rewarded with a 3% increase in salary? ("Gee Chris, I would love to give more but company policy...") Why shouldn't I go someplace that does value my efforts? You should not bust your hump. Deploy adroit political acumen to reduce your workload. I can't remember the last time I busted my hump on a development job. But if you want more money, you absolutely should go somewhere else. What I'm saying is that expecting your existing company to be the vehicle for that advancement is naive at best. I requested, and got, two large raises at my last job. I was still underpaid at the end of it. I'm underpaid now, even though I got another massive raise when I switched companies. The reality is, you get a market salary from the market, not from any one company. A company is either going to be open to paying market rates or they won't be. You have to make the decision whether to accept that. Playing hardball with a company that's not prepared to pay you market just won't get you anywhere. Find a company that's prepared to pay market.
s73v3r_ 9y ago
"But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away." They're going to do that anyway. "You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table." If my extra $5k is the difference between live and die, then the company was failing anyway, and I should take as much as I can before the company closes, to tide me over while I look for a new job.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  $5k over the course of a year. It's not a lot of money.