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You're missing a rather obvious point. A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly

by soheil 9y ago

You're missing a rather obvious point. A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Another point missing is that sometimes there are very hard problems (eg. self-driving cars, fusion power, DNA pattern matching) that need solving quickly and that's what some companies try to do, there are other type of companies that solve move mundane problems (hr software, customer relation management software, email tool) that have been solved over and over again. To bundle all companies into one category when it comes to training junior devs is a mistake, junior devs could be trained at companies working on easier problems much more cost effectively and efficiently.

mwdalrymple 9y ago
I disagree with that statement. I find that a junior dev is far less jaded by the work world and will often develop a loyalty and dedicate to the team (if it is a good environment) that a sr. Dev wouldn't. Once your are 5 to 10 years into your career how you view your work/life balance and professional relationships changes dramatically. A junior dev will often stay with an organization much much longer than what is probably good for them, especially if they are actively mentored and engaged.
- Raidion 9y ago
  I agree with this. My first job I was under a fairly good partner who took the time to mentor me, get me involved in decision making processes, and take me out to see clients. It was some of the best times of my life and I did learn a ton. I had to move for a family issue and immediately received a 35% raise in a similar COL location. If I didn't have that issue come up, I probably would have stayed much longer and continued to be underpaid.
GVIrish 9y ago
> A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Sure, but that's why you need to give people raises in line with market rates if you don't want to experience high turnover. That goes for junior and more senior people. Companies often don't want to give big raises as junior people transition into mid-level, then senior. So many companies have a standardized 2-8% pay raise scale, which results in developers being drastically underpaid as they gain experience. The silly part of that is that those same companies are gonna have to pay market rate to replace those skills when their employees leave, and they have to eat the additional recruiting costs, lost institutional knowledge, and ramp up time for a new employee. Penny-wise and pound-foolish as it were.
- soheil 9y ago
  I think there is a lot of assumptions being made in regards to what training actually is. In software development field change is constant a senior dev can not afford to stop learning new techniques, frameworks, etc. that’s not something you just get mentored at and you’re set for the rest of your career. The issue that seems to be ignored here is the fact that good devs are active learners on their own and do not typically require the kind of hand holding that is implicitly implied to be required in these type of arguments. A company can not train an employee who otherwise does not have the required skills for the job and hope that once they are trained will stay at the same company. Here is the equation in my mind: cost of junior dev added slowness + senior dev lost training time > recruiting cost for senior devs + lost institutional knowledge + ramp up time for new senior devs
  - lovich 9y ago
    Devs are constantly learning but there's a still a lot at tech jobs that you are paying people to learn once. Some of it is how to get around in legacy code bases that haven't been worth replacing yet, but even things like "this is how you file an expense report" add up in time and need to be repeated for every new hire

by soheil 9y ago

mwdalrymple 9y ago

I disagree with that statement. I find that a junior dev is far less jaded by the work world and will often develop a loyalty and dedicate to the team (if it is a good environment) that a sr. Dev wouldn't. Once your are 5 to 10 years into your career how you view your work/life balance and professional relationships changes dramatically. A junior dev will often stay with an organization much much longer than what is probably good for them, especially if they are actively mentored and engaged.

Raidion 9y ago
I agree with this. My first job I was under a fairly good partner who took the time to mentor me, get me involved in decision making processes, and take me out to see clients. It was some of the best times of my life and I did learn a ton. I had to move for a family issue and immediately received a 35% raise in a similar COL location. If I didn't have that issue come up, I probably would have stayed much longer and continued to be underpaid.

GVIrish 9y ago

> A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Sure, but that's why you need to give people raises in line with market rates if you don't want to experience high turnover. That goes for junior and more senior people. Companies often don't want to give big raises as junior people transition into mid-level, then senior. So many companies have a standardized 2-8% pay raise scale, which results in developers being drastically underpaid as they gain experience. The silly part of that is that those same companies are gonna have to pay market rate to replace those skills when their employees leave, and they have to eat the additional recruiting costs, lost institutional knowledge, and ramp up time for a new employee. Penny-wise and pound-foolish as it were.

soheil 9y ago
I think there is a lot of assumptions being made in regards to what training actually is. In software development field change is constant a senior dev can not afford to stop learning new techniques, frameworks, etc. that’s not something you just get mentored at and you’re set for the rest of your career. The issue that seems to be ignored here is the fact that good devs are active learners on their own and do not typically require the kind of hand holding that is implicitly implied to be required in these type of arguments. A company can not train an employee who otherwise does not have the required skills for the job and hope that once they are trained will stay at the same company. Here is the equation in my mind: cost of junior dev added slowness + senior dev lost training time > recruiting cost for senior devs + lost institutional knowledge + ramp up time for new senior devs
- lovich 9y ago
  Devs are constantly learning but there's a still a lot at tech jobs that you are paying people to learn once. Some of it is how to get around in legacy code bases that haven't been worth replacing yet, but even things like "this is how you file an expense report" add up in time and need to be repeated for every new hire