5 ms·

This is the answer, but they just won't listen. Management at so many firms have convinced themselves that developers leave because of all these magical reason

This is the answer, but they just won't listen. Management at so many firms have convinced themselves that developers leave because of all these magical reasons that aren't either 1) they're dissatisfied with their pay and you're not listening 2) they're dissatisfied with their working conditions (bullpens or open offices anyone?) so they'll never keep their best people and they'll never learn.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> This is the answer, but they just won't listen Is there a counterfactual? A company with a strong culture of promoting from within that outperforms as a likely result of this attribute?
- Consultant32452 9y ago
  In my experience promoting from within is still insufficient. Getting a promotion means maybe a 10% raise. Quitting means a 50-100% raise. I've got a guy on my team in a junior-ish position making 80 who is about to leave to make 160. There's no promotion path in the company to get that kind of raise over night.
  - tobyhinloopen 9y ago
    Well that sucks time to change the company...
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      I've personally never heard of any company doubling a developer's salary like that. Have you?
      - thedufer 9y ago
        It's certainly rare, but my employer is aggressive about keeping compensation appropriate. Top performing new hires can see their comp double in 2-3 years.
      - wccrawford 9y ago
        Double, no. But I had a company that gave me a 30-40$ increase one year because it was obvious I was performing at that level. Then a couple years later they were giving me basically no raise. When I told them I thought I was worth more, they asked me if I could "wait a year". I got a new job and a huge raise compared to the last one. (Again, 30-40%.) So while it's possible, it's not always even reliable at the same company that has done it in the past.
  - johnnyanmac 9y ago
    Where the heck are these kinds of companies? I've heard jumping for a $10-20k raise (so, roughly 20-30%), but double for a junior? Unless COL influences stuff, I'd be wondering what he did right and knock that off as an outlier.
    - mixmastamyk 9y ago
      His junior position probably doesn’t have a junior label, and the next one might have a senior.
      - Consultant32452 9y ago
        This is the correct answer.
- mooreds 9y ago
  GE used to do this (not developers, but generally) in the 1980s, I think. Here's an article about promoting CEOs from within and how that is beneficial: http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/companies-need-not-hire.html http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/companies-...
Declanomous 9y ago
That's because fixing 1 and 2 are really expensive. On top of that, the further removed someone is from the work being done, the more they want people to look "busy". I got moved from a desk in in a dead end office with to a desk in a bullpen so that I could be "closer to the people who I work with." My performance fell off a cliff. People would stop by all the time to check up on things, there was always a conversation going on. It was incredibly stressful and I slowly burned out trying to maintain my level of productivity. My boss (the director of the org.) started asking me why I was making mistakes and forgetting deadlines. I told him that it was entirely because of my new desk, and he said he would do what he could to help. A couple of months go by, and we have another meeting. I say the same thing. A few more months go by, we have another meeting. I say the same thing. He said he asked people to keep their conversations quieter. A few more months go by, and we have a meeting, and I tell my boss I'm leaving because I'm burned out, and my desk is the #1 culprit. He and HR were like "you should have let us know before it got to this point." I don't think there was a chance for them to understand the issue, regardless of how I articulated my concerns. To them, my new desk was an upgrade from the old desk. It was bigger, had lots of drawers, was closer to the "desirable" part of the building. To me, it meant that everyone had to walk by my desk, and would use the time to chat, and ask questions that would be better handled via email. It was nice being closer to the team, but I had a way different workflow from everyone else. My boss probably thought it was great that everyone could turn around and ask me a question the second they thought of it, but it meant I was getting interrupted 3-4 times an hour, when I used to be able to work for 3 hours straight without seeing anyone. I've honestly been thinking of calling up my old boss and asking him if he wants to grab a drink to see if he ever wrapped his head around why I left. To this day I'm baffled by the entire situation. TL;DR: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"
- loorinm 9y ago
  How is it expensive to solve the bullpen issue? Tell people to STFU or build a wall in the office, or at least put up some dividers. It’s not rocket science. Most CEOs and VPs are idiots, handing money around to each other in a circle jerk of old white guys club, backslapping each other for hiring each other and keeping the hegemony going. These idiots do not know what they are doing, they have just been conditioned to ooze confidence and ignore critics.
zackya89 9y ago
This I can nod agreed with, Im forced into open office, with a lot of marketing people, and I cant be productive, often times I end up spending my time at home fixing the hard problems, and just doing the easy ones at work. btw. I'm a junior dev. without mentor working with non tech people.
jschwartzi 9y ago
3) They're dissatisfied with how they are managed.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> This is the answer, but they just won't listen Is there a counterfactual? A company with a strong culture of promoting from within that outperforms as a likely result of this attribute?

Consultant32452 9y ago
In my experience promoting from within is still insufficient. Getting a promotion means maybe a 10% raise. Quitting means a 50-100% raise. I've got a guy on my team in a junior-ish position making 80 who is about to leave to make 160. There's no promotion path in the company to get that kind of raise over night.
- tobyhinloopen 9y ago
  Well that sucks time to change the company...
  - Consultant32452 9y ago
    I've personally never heard of any company doubling a developer's salary like that. Have you?
    - thedufer 9y ago
      It's certainly rare, but my employer is aggressive about keeping compensation appropriate. Top performing new hires can see their comp double in 2-3 years.
    - wccrawford 9y ago
      Double, no. But I had a company that gave me a 30-40$ increase one year because it was obvious I was performing at that level. Then a couple years later they were giving me basically no raise. When I told them I thought I was worth more, they asked me if I could "wait a year". I got a new job and a huge raise compared to the last one. (Again, 30-40%.) So while it's possible, it's not always even reliable at the same company that has done it in the past.
- johnnyanmac 9y ago
  Where the heck are these kinds of companies? I've heard jumping for a $10-20k raise (so, roughly 20-30%), but double for a junior? Unless COL influences stuff, I'd be wondering what he did right and knock that off as an outlier.
  - mixmastamyk 9y ago
    His junior position probably doesn’t have a junior label, and the next one might have a senior.
    - Consultant32452 9y ago
      This is the correct answer.
mooreds 9y ago
GE used to do this (not developers, but generally) in the 1980s, I think. Here's an article about promoting CEOs from within and how that is beneficial: http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/companies-need-not-hire.html http://www.jimcollins.com/article_topics/articles/companies-...

Declanomous 9y ago

That's because fixing 1 and 2 are really expensive. On top of that, the further removed someone is from the work being done, the more they want people to look "busy". I got moved from a desk in in a dead end office with to a desk in a bullpen so that I could be "closer to the people who I work with." My performance fell off a cliff. People would stop by all the time to check up on things, there was always a conversation going on. It was incredibly stressful and I slowly burned out trying to maintain my level of productivity. My boss (the director of the org.) started asking me why I was making mistakes and forgetting deadlines. I told him that it was entirely because of my new desk, and he said he would do what he could to help. A couple of months go by, and we have another meeting. I say the same thing. A few more months go by, we have another meeting. I say the same thing. He said he asked people to keep their conversations quieter. A few more months go by, and we have a meeting, and I tell my boss I'm leaving because I'm burned out, and my desk is the #1 culprit. He and HR were like "you should have let us know before it got to this point." I don't think there was a chance for them to understand the issue, regardless of how I articulated my concerns. To them, my new desk was an upgrade from the old desk. It was bigger, had lots of drawers, was closer to the "desirable" part of the building. To me, it meant that everyone had to walk by my desk, and would use the time to chat, and ask questions that would be better handled via email. It was nice being closer to the team, but I had a way different workflow from everyone else. My boss probably thought it was great that everyone could turn around and ask me a question the second they thought of it, but it meant I was getting interrupted 3-4 times an hour, when I used to be able to work for 3 hours straight without seeing anyone. I've honestly been thinking of calling up my old boss and asking him if he wants to grab a drink to see if he ever wrapped his head around why I left. To this day I'm baffled by the entire situation. TL;DR: "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

loorinm 9y ago
How is it expensive to solve the bullpen issue? Tell people to STFU or build a wall in the office, or at least put up some dividers. It’s not rocket science. Most CEOs and VPs are idiots, handing money around to each other in a circle jerk of old white guys club, backslapping each other for hiring each other and keeping the hegemony going. These idiots do not know what they are doing, they have just been conditioned to ooze confidence and ignore critics.

zackya89 9y ago

This I can nod agreed with, Im forced into open office, with a lot of marketing people, and I cant be productive, often times I end up spending my time at home fixing the hard problems, and just doing the easy ones at work. btw. I'm a junior dev. without mentor working with non tech people.

jschwartzi 9y ago

3) They're dissatisfied with how they are managed.