3 ms·

You'd be amazed how little impact spreading that wealth around in the form of salaries will actually make on an individual salary. And on just how much those of

You'd be amazed how little impact spreading that wealth around in the form of salaries will actually make on an individual salary. And on just how much those offices and perks actually contribute to company image. Coders should stop being so mercenary.

s73v3r_ 9y ago
"Coders should stop being so mercenary." Why?
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  Because it makes everyone less civil.
  - s73v3r_ 9y ago
    I strongly disagree. And given that I'm working for a company who's entire purpose is to make money, I fail to see why I should not do the same. Nothing good comes from me forgoing making all that I can make.
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      You'll make a lot more money just starting your own business. Like, a ridiculous amount more. Then when you start hiring, you'll understand why attitudes like yours are toxic.
      - s73v3r_ 9y ago
        Again, I'm failing to see why you're advocating for a business to make all the money it can, but why you decry the same for employees. Double standard much?
        vinceguidry 9y ago
        You support one family. Companies support dozens to hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        And why should I not get as much as I can for my family? Also, how do you reconcile your statement with the fact that companies will fire someone as soon as it makes sense for them?
        vinceguidry 9y ago
        You should try to get as much as you can for your family. But the best way to do this is to move up the value chain, not keep trying to squeeze blood out of a stone. You seem dead set on getting more compensation for bringing the exact same amount of value to the table. My solution to your "fact" is to not work for a bunch of dicks. I've never gotten fired "as soon as it makes sense" once I transitioned into development. You seem to work for a lot of dicks. Stop doing that.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        No, I work for business people. The very same type of people you tell me I should gift money by leaving it on the table. This is going to be the last reply, but you've not made your case as to why I should gift my employer free money by leaving it on the table. There is exactly zero benefit to me for not getting everything I can, and quite a bit of upside. I have also found your double standard regarding the behavior of companies and the behavior of employees, and your handwaving away of that double standard, to be quite insane. In short, you feel free to do whatever you want, and gift your employer free money. I, on the other hand, am going to take care of myself and my family by getting the maximum value I can out of the time I have to give my employer, and get paid as much as I can.
        vinceguidry 9y ago
    - tebugst 9y ago
      Agree with you absolutely. Everyone here to make money. If they don't need you or they need you and you don't work, will they give you money ? If you are good at something, never do it for ...
  - Caveman_Coder 9y ago
    Do you think the nature of the employer-employee relationship is civil to begin with?
    - vinceguidry 9y ago
      The original employer-employee relationship was between farmers and strongman warlords. If the strongmen didn't protect the farmers then they didn't get fed and if the farmers didn't produce as much as they could then they ran the risk of getting overrun by guys they didn't have an existing working relationship with. So yeah, I think that was an inherently civil relationship. Agrarian empires were the original forms of civilization. Just because there's a hierarchy doesn't make it not civilized. Hierarchy is instead what makes it civilized. Hierarchy means that everyone can relax and focus on what's in their wheelhouse.
chrisbennet 9y ago
This is a value for value business relationship. It’s not mercenary for “coders” to capture more of the value that they created in the first place. An employer is not entitled to get cheaper labor just because it helps them get richer.
- vinceguidry 9y ago
  Like I told the other commenter, if you want to capture more of the value, you need to own more of the business. Look, if we're talking giant corporations here, I agree with you. The company isn't going to miss another $5k/year. But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away. Their budget is what they live and die on, and surplus profit typically gets rolled back into the business, not wasted on dividends. You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table.
  - chrisbennet 9y ago
    I understand what you are saying especially when it comes to a "lifestyle" business that keeps an employee on when they have a bad year. The employee trades some salary for security. I'm not so sure how common that sort of business is though. You've got the start-ups that are focused on a big exit to pay their investors and let the founders cash out. They (and their VC investors) want their employees to sacrifice/invest/commit "like a founder" - but without the founders upside. You've also got the large businesses that will, in your own words, "keep you until they can outsource your job away" for a little more profit. This is the reality for developers and they have slowly decided to seek their fair share to the consternation of businesses that were used to adding that value to their own bottom line. When I hear someone saying that "coders" (or sometimes "code monkeys") shouldn't be focused on salary I hear someone who (A) doesn't respect my profession and (B) doesn't see why they shouldn't be able to exploit me. (When it comes to my own clients, I do leave money on the the table. I could justify it by saying that I do it "in the interests of a long term relationships" but in reality I'm emotionally invested in their success and I want their projects to succeed.)

s73v3r_ 9y ago

"Coders should stop being so mercenary." Why?

vinceguidry 9y ago
Because it makes everyone less civil.
- s73v3r_ 9y ago
  I strongly disagree. And given that I'm working for a company who's entire purpose is to make money, I fail to see why I should not do the same. Nothing good comes from me forgoing making all that I can make.
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    You'll make a lot more money just starting your own business. Like, a ridiculous amount more. Then when you start hiring, you'll understand why attitudes like yours are toxic.
    - s73v3r_ 9y ago
      Again, I'm failing to see why you're advocating for a business to make all the money it can, but why you decry the same for employees. Double standard much?
      - vinceguidry 9y ago
        You support one family. Companies support dozens to hundreds to thousands to tens of thousands.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        And why should I not get as much as I can for my family? Also, how do you reconcile your statement with the fact that companies will fire someone as soon as it makes sense for them?
        vinceguidry 9y ago
        You should try to get as much as you can for your family. But the best way to do this is to move up the value chain, not keep trying to squeeze blood out of a stone. You seem dead set on getting more compensation for bringing the exact same amount of value to the table. My solution to your "fact" is to not work for a bunch of dicks. I've never gotten fired "as soon as it makes sense" once I transitioned into development. You seem to work for a lot of dicks. Stop doing that.
        s73v3r_ 9y ago
        No, I work for business people. The very same type of people you tell me I should gift money by leaving it on the table. This is going to be the last reply, but you've not made your case as to why I should gift my employer free money by leaving it on the table. There is exactly zero benefit to me for not getting everything I can, and quite a bit of upside. I have also found your double standard regarding the behavior of companies and the behavior of employees, and your handwaving away of that double standard, to be quite insane. In short, you feel free to do whatever you want, and gift your employer free money. I, on the other hand, am going to take care of myself and my family by getting the maximum value I can out of the time I have to give my employer, and get paid as much as I can.
        vinceguidry 9y ago
  - tebugst 9y ago
    Agree with you absolutely. Everyone here to make money. If they don't need you or they need you and you don't work, will they give you money ? If you are good at something, never do it for ...
- Caveman_Coder 9y ago
  Do you think the nature of the employer-employee relationship is civil to begin with?
  - vinceguidry 9y ago
    The original employer-employee relationship was between farmers and strongman warlords. If the strongmen didn't protect the farmers then they didn't get fed and if the farmers didn't produce as much as they could then they ran the risk of getting overrun by guys they didn't have an existing working relationship with. So yeah, I think that was an inherently civil relationship. Agrarian empires were the original forms of civilization. Just because there's a hierarchy doesn't make it not civilized. Hierarchy is instead what makes it civilized. Hierarchy means that everyone can relax and focus on what's in their wheelhouse.

chrisbennet 9y ago

This is a value for value business relationship. It’s not mercenary for “coders” to capture more of the value that they created in the first place. An employer is not entitled to get cheaper labor just because it helps them get richer.

vinceguidry 9y ago
Like I told the other commenter, if you want to capture more of the value, you need to own more of the business. Look, if we're talking giant corporations here, I agree with you. The company isn't going to miss another $5k/year. But if you play hardball with a $3M company, then they're only going to keep you until they can outsource your job away. Their budget is what they live and die on, and surplus profit typically gets rolled back into the business, not wasted on dividends. You're directly affecting company viability by not being willing to leave some money on the table.
- chrisbennet 9y ago
  I understand what you are saying especially when it comes to a "lifestyle" business that keeps an employee on when they have a bad year. The employee trades some salary for security. I'm not so sure how common that sort of business is though. You've got the start-ups that are focused on a big exit to pay their investors and let the founders cash out. They (and their VC investors) want their employees to sacrifice/invest/commit "like a founder" - but without the founders upside. You've also got the large businesses that will, in your own words, "keep you until they can outsource your job away" for a little more profit. This is the reality for developers and they have slowly decided to seek their fair share to the consternation of businesses that were used to adding that value to their own bottom line. When I hear someone saying that "coders" (or sometimes "code monkeys") shouldn't be focused on salary I hear someone who (A) doesn't respect my profession and (B) doesn't see why they shouldn't be able to exploit me. (When it comes to my own clients, I do leave money on the the table. I could justify it by saying that I do it "in the interests of a long term relationships" but in reality I'm emotionally invested in their success and I want their projects to succeed.)