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I think people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what they’re doing isn’t wrong. Concerted effort to knock down those justifications and socially

I think people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what they’re doing isn’t wrong. Concerted effort to knock down those justifications and socially shame those that cling to them does work - consider all the people who don’t want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor, or those who leave with one of the reasons being to escape the industry that they know is wrong.

peoplewindow 9y ago
I think the opposite - people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what other people are doing is wrong. This lets them feel self satisfied, virtuous and perhaps a little smug effectively for free, and if their position is perhaps a little thinly thought out, well, no big deal, it's not like anyone is going to listen anyway. I've watched many attempts to tar entire industries as evil over the years. Invariably the people doing the tarring look foolish or naive - like they can't think more than one step ahead, or like they live in a world where tradeoffs do not exist. To pick just the two examples you chose: without defense industries countries would be ripe for being taken over by even a slightly aggressive invader who would immediately commit all sorts of horrible atrocities. That's why defense exists. Given that countries have been invading each other for thousands of years, it's a massive stretch to believe we are in a post-war society and people who attack defense workers invariably never try to argue that. They don't seem able or willing to think the next step ahead: "ok, everyone refuses to build weapons.... then what?" And as for ads, if you remove all ads from the internet, TV, cinemas etc then all those things would suddenly become way more expensive. Good luck affording an internet connection if your daily browsing habit isn't being subsidised by advertisers anymore. That would be a fast way to ensure nobody poor could use the internet. Do you hate the poor? Probably not: more likely you never thought about the consequences of not having advertising.
- taurath 9y ago
  Your examples are rather extreme and not what I'm advocating at all - there's a big difference between the Navy and Blackwater.
- Maybestring 9y ago
  >Good luck affording an internet connection if your daily browsing habit isn't being subsidised by advertisers anymore. What portion of ISP revenue is from advertising? I suspect it is vanishingly small.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    ISP revenue - none. Revenue for all the free services and sites the ISP connects you to - almost all of it.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
seabird 9y ago
Consider all the people who do want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor. Ethical outlooks are relative, but your outlook bother people who are "unbound," even if their outlook bothers you. Go ahead and knock down those justifications all you like, but some people can't be swayed. You could go ahead and jail them for their unsavory take and they would see themselves as a victim of a society that denies them their freedom.
- taurath 9y ago
  I certainly wasn't saying that all or even 20% of people will be swayed. Just that it can make a difference.

peoplewindow 9y ago

I think the opposite - people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what other people are doing is wrong. This lets them feel self satisfied, virtuous and perhaps a little smug effectively for free, and if their position is perhaps a little thinly thought out, well, no big deal, it's not like anyone is going to listen anyway. I've watched many attempts to tar entire industries as evil over the years. Invariably the people doing the tarring look foolish or naive - like they can't think more than one step ahead, or like they live in a world where tradeoffs do not exist. To pick just the two examples you chose: without defense industries countries would be ripe for being taken over by even a slightly aggressive invader who would immediately commit all sorts of horrible atrocities. That's why defense exists. Given that countries have been invading each other for thousands of years, it's a massive stretch to believe we are in a post-war society and people who attack defense workers invariably never try to argue that. They don't seem able or willing to think the next step ahead: "ok, everyone refuses to build weapons.... then what?" And as for ads, if you remove all ads from the internet, TV, cinemas etc then all those things would suddenly become way more expensive. Good luck affording an internet connection if your daily browsing habit isn't being subsidised by advertisers anymore. That would be a fast way to ensure nobody poor could use the internet. Do you hate the poor? Probably not: more likely you never thought about the consequences of not having advertising.

taurath 9y ago
Your examples are rather extreme and not what I'm advocating at all - there's a big difference between the Navy and Blackwater.
Maybestring 9y ago
>Good luck affording an internet connection if your daily browsing habit isn't being subsidised by advertisers anymore. What portion of ISP revenue is from advertising? I suspect it is vanishingly small.
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  ISP revenue - none. Revenue for all the free services and sites the ISP connects you to - almost all of it.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

seabird 9y ago

Consider all the people who do want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor. Ethical outlooks are relative, but your outlook bother people who are "unbound," even if their outlook bothers you. Go ahead and knock down those justifications all you like, but some people can't be swayed. You could go ahead and jail them for their unsavory take and they would see themselves as a victim of a society that denies them their freedom.

taurath 9y ago
I certainly wasn't saying that all or even 20% of people will be swayed. Just that it can make a difference.