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The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc). Security concerns are

by pdkl95 9y ago

The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc). Security concerns are rarely convincing, and tracking can be hard to explain, but paying for more electricity and worse UI response time are things people actually care about.

Kiro 9y ago
> worse UI response time The miner is run in a WebWorker so shouldn't affect the UI response time.
- pdkl95 9y ago
  I never said it was the browser's UI. Regardless of which UI, you do not know people are using their computer for, or how much free CPU they have available. My friend's 1.2Ghz Core 2 Solo[1] laptop takes many seconds to reload locally hosted static HTML. Loading a youtube page takes >30s, sometimes far more. Anytime a webpage has CPU-bound Javascript - intentionally or not - the mouse becomes a lot harder to use. No, they are not buying a new laptop anytime soon; they live below the poverty line with student loans and medical expenses. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#%22Merom-L%22_%2865_nm%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microproc...
BinaryIdiot 9y ago
> The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc). Has it though? Do you have any data to back up this assumption? I can't find ANYONE who is tech illiterate who understands any of this stuff and those that I know are tech literate either don't notice or don't care about JavaScript. I've only ever met very, very few people who disable JavaScript and when they do it's always been piecemeal. I haven't been able to find any statistics regarding who does and doesn't disable JavaScript, their group size, etc. It would be really interesting to know!
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > Has it though? I have personally succeeded in convincing more people to disable javascript in the last few months than I have since Javascript was introduced in Netscape Navigator 2.0. > this assumption? I'm offering personal experience, not an assumption.
- andromedaworld 9y ago
  I've disabled JS and only enable it in incognito when needed/when mandatory for a particular site. Tedious I know, but a habit I picked up when everyone started autoplaying videos.
  - dawnerd 9y ago
    Don't need javascript to autoplay videos.
    - andromedaworld 9y ago
      On most sites you do. I do this everyday. I should know what I'm talking about.
apatters 9y ago
I have no problem at all with websites using browser mining as an alternate monetization strategy to ads, as long as: 1) Permission is requested first 2) The UX is good (it stays out of my way and doesn't slow down my device) 3) The mining finishes when I leave the site Most of the problems with the modern web stem from the failure of browser vendors to implement a good user-centric permissions model. They all hold an unquestioned belief that more power in the platform is always better, and they've all spent the past 15 years kowtowing to developers, advertisers, and profit-motivated corporations instead of protecting their users from the above. I want a simple, limited, fast, secure, document-centric platform which allows the site to request the execution of additional functions. Publishers unsurprisingly abuse the freedom they currently enjoy to throw up popovers on every page, secretly steal CPU cycles, load-on-demand videos that follow me as I scroll, and track every move I make online. I don't want any of that to work by default. A common, well-intentioned argument against my point of view in the last few years has been that the web platform needs to compete with native mobile apps. That argument carried a lot more weight when everyone was installing tons of native apps. But increasingly we're at the point where we're sick of native apps for all the same reasons we're sick of the web -- they too are bloated attention + data thieves. We need a true user-first platform. I'll pay for sites or apps on that platform, or I'll let them use my CPU to mine crypto. I just want them to not suck. Microsoft, Mozilla and Apple could all lead the way in shipping browsers that are pro-user. Mozilla's got the heart for it, Microsoft and Apple have little to lose. Leaders at all these companies have failed to lead and demonstrate vision, relegating themselves to playing second fiddle to Google on the web because they think shitty popup ads will be the final word in web history.
- pdkl95 9y ago
  > Most of the problems with the modern web stem from the failure of browser vendors to implement a good user-centric permissions model. I suggest that such creating a proper permission model isn't possible, because it isn't possible to determine the behavior of Turing complete programs without running them[1]. Browsers are currently chasing the impossible[2] goal of trying to enumerate badness - often only the known types of badness that fit their permission model. > I want a simple, limited, fast, secure, document-centric platform We had that: HTML, before Javascript. Allowing any Turing complete code to run at all will always be risky[3]. [1] halting problem [2] http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/ http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/d... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099

by pdkl95 9y ago

Kiro 9y ago

> worse UI response time The miner is run in a WebWorker so shouldn't affect the UI response time.

pdkl95 9y ago
I never said it was the browser's UI. Regardless of which UI, you do not know people are using their computer for, or how much free CPU they have available. My friend's 1.2Ghz Core 2 Solo[1] laptop takes many seconds to reload locally hosted static HTML. Loading a youtube page takes >30s, sometimes far more. Anytime a webpage has CPU-bound Javascript - intentionally or not - the mouse becomes a lot harder to use. No, they are not buying a new laptop anytime soon; they live below the poverty line with student loans and medical expenses. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microprocessors#%22Merom-L%22_%2865_nm%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Intel_Core_2_microproc...

BinaryIdiot 9y ago

> The increased use of browser mining has made it a lot easier to convince people to globally disable Javascript (or install noscript/etc). Has it though? Do you have any data to back up this assumption? I can't find ANYONE who is tech illiterate who understands any of this stuff and those that I know are tech literate either don't notice or don't care about JavaScript. I've only ever met very, very few people who disable JavaScript and when they do it's always been piecemeal. I haven't been able to find any statistics regarding who does and doesn't disable JavaScript, their group size, etc. It would be really interesting to know!

pdkl95 9y ago
> Has it though? I have personally succeeded in convincing more people to disable javascript in the last few months than I have since Javascript was introduced in Netscape Navigator 2.0. > this assumption? I'm offering personal experience, not an assumption.
andromedaworld 9y ago
I've disabled JS and only enable it in incognito when needed/when mandatory for a particular site. Tedious I know, but a habit I picked up when everyone started autoplaying videos.
- dawnerd 9y ago
  Don't need javascript to autoplay videos.
  - andromedaworld 9y ago
    On most sites you do. I do this everyday. I should know what I'm talking about.

apatters 9y ago

I have no problem at all with websites using browser mining as an alternate monetization strategy to ads, as long as: 1) Permission is requested first 2) The UX is good (it stays out of my way and doesn't slow down my device) 3) The mining finishes when I leave the site Most of the problems with the modern web stem from the failure of browser vendors to implement a good user-centric permissions model. They all hold an unquestioned belief that more power in the platform is always better, and they've all spent the past 15 years kowtowing to developers, advertisers, and profit-motivated corporations instead of protecting their users from the above. I want a simple, limited, fast, secure, document-centric platform which allows the site to request the execution of additional functions. Publishers unsurprisingly abuse the freedom they currently enjoy to throw up popovers on every page, secretly steal CPU cycles, load-on-demand videos that follow me as I scroll, and track every move I make online. I don't want any of that to work by default. A common, well-intentioned argument against my point of view in the last few years has been that the web platform needs to compete with native mobile apps. That argument carried a lot more weight when everyone was installing tons of native apps. But increasingly we're at the point where we're sick of native apps for all the same reasons we're sick of the web -- they too are bloated attention + data thieves. We need a true user-first platform. I'll pay for sites or apps on that platform, or I'll let them use my CPU to mine crypto. I just want them to not suck. Microsoft, Mozilla and Apple could all lead the way in shipping browsers that are pro-user. Mozilla's got the heart for it, Microsoft and Apple have little to lose. Leaders at all these companies have failed to lead and demonstrate vision, relegating themselves to playing second fiddle to Google on the web because they think shitty popup ads will be the final word in web history.

pdkl95 9y ago
> Most of the problems with the modern web stem from the failure of browser vendors to implement a good user-centric permissions model. I suggest that such creating a proper permission model isn't possible, because it isn't possible to determine the behavior of Turing complete programs without running them[1]. Browsers are currently chasing the impossible[2] goal of trying to enumerate badness - often only the known types of badness that fit their permission model. > I want a simple, limited, fast, secure, document-centric platform We had that: HTML, before Javascript. Allowing any Turing complete code to run at all will always be risky[3]. [1] halting problem [2] http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/dumb/ http://www.ranum.com/security/computer_security/editorials/d... [3] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15708099