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Breaking: Engineer Thinks PM is a Bozo. Film at 11. It's not really context. The real problem here is the premise that "Apple has software quality issues" is t

Breaking: Engineer Thinks PM is a Bozo. Film at 11. It's not really context. The real problem here is the premise that "Apple has software quality issues" is taken as a given, without support. Sinofsky makes the point that Apple is operating a such a huge, unfathomable scale and depth -- and this is coming from one of Microsoft's top guys in its heyday -- that even rare bugs that affect 0.01% of users translate into a "stadium full" of people, affecting their lives deeply. So, combine that with a sensationalist, anecdote-driven news cycle and you get an optics problem. He observes that "in any absolute sense," Apple's SW+HW quality has "exceeded everyone else."[1] [1] https://twitter.com/stevesi/status/963142502604779520 https://twitter.com/stevesi/status/963142502604779520 (via Gruber)

PakG1 9y ago
If you're not receiving criticism, you don't matter.
- Someone1234 9y ago
  "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses" - Bjarne Stroustrup I've found that quote to apply to everything. Familiarity breads contempt, even just from boredom, or wanting to shift blame for the monotony of the task you're using the tool for. For example I think Excel is a great piece of software, but I know someone who spends all day every day in it doing dull but important spreadsheets. They're what I consider an Excel expert. But they hate Excel because every little minor issue is magnified for them because they spend all day every day in it.
  - gurkendoktor 9y ago
    I agree that this kind of criticism exists. However, that doesn't mean that all criticism is invalid, or that a large amount of criticism is necessarily a marker of success. Some software examples: Internet Explorer has not been winning the browser wars for a decade. I've deleted Skype after its interface had been sufficiently ruined, and I don't know anyone who still uses it for business. When iTunes got too annoying, I left its ecosystem for Spotify. It's not looking good for Siri in the battle for the smart home. Speaking of programming languages, I complain a lot about Swift, don't use it, and am moving in the general direction of IntelliJ IDEs. Excel and C++ got lucky, they will be hard to replace.
epistasis 9y ago
It funny, while rare bugs are part of the problem, fundamental design is a problem that confronts me much more. The epidemic spread of animations that reduce functionality and responsiveness are pretty unforgivable. This is something that affects all users that try to interact with their phones, and I'm getting pretty sick of modal switches between "accepts touch input" and "doesn't accept input" when there are no visual indicators of the modality of the current moment. Oh how I long for the old iPhone 4 and it's greater responsiveness and more fluid UX.
- fbdjskajxb 9y ago
  In the settings under Accessibility there is “Reduce Motion”, which takes away most of the animations.
  - epistasis 9y ago
    Thats not quite correct; it replaces swooping movement with fades. However the same design problems I mentioned persist.
- cageface 9y ago
  Animations are one of the reasons I use Android. iOS is just littered with gratuitous animations that needlessly slow down the interface. My two least favorite are the home screen zoom-in effect you get every time you unlock the device and the animated text on typing autocomplete suggestions. And you can't disable either of these without disabling system animations entirety. This stuff is symptomatic of Apple's love of form over function, also manifested in dumb and costly UI gimmicks like 3D touch.
  - lloeki 9y ago
    > form over function Properly designed animations are function: they give a sense of place and help in creating a navigation hierarchy instead of having things pop into and out of existence. > iOS is just littered with gratuitous animations that needlessly slow down the interface Their gratuitousness is evaluated by you by the "slowdown" they bring. The only slowdown they bring me is when they're not interruptible/concurrent, but that's a bug, like the calculator app's one. > My two least favorite are the home screen zoom-in effect you get every time you unlock the device Unless I'm literally trying to race the beam, by the time I move my finger from the home button to a position over the screen the animation has completed. The animation is interruptible and you can tap or swipe right through it. > and the animated text on typing autocomplete suggestions How is that slowing you down? You just type <space> which triggers the animation yet merrily continue as the animation proceeds while you are already inputting the next words. > costly UI gimmicks like 3D touch To each his own: I use it everyday to peek at things and multitask, it's a real timesaver.
askafriend 9y ago
Absolutely agree with Sinofsky here to a large extent - there is little precedent at the scale some of these companies are operating at in 2018. My original comment was to more spark a certain type of discussion more than anything else. It's cool to see other Apple engineers and PMs chime in with their perspective.
pdpi 9y ago
It's not "Engineer thinks PM is a bozo", it's a post explaining a very concrete, objectively negative behaviour from the PM team. I've worked at companies where that sort of behaviour was rampant, I've worked at places where it wasn't, and the difference in the end product is palpable. Second, even if it's just anecdotal, I have personally been experiencing issues with my tMBP at work that I haven't had with any previous laptops going back to a G4 iBook. Stuff like random crashes, parts of the screen failing to render properly, etc. IT says that they're experiencing more of that sort of complaint with the current gen than they have with others in the past. The "sensationalist anecdote-driven news cycle" is blowing things out of proportion, to be sure, but there does seem to be some measurable degradation in their Apple's standards as of lately.
- jsight 9y ago
  > It's not "Engineer thinks PM is a bozo", it's a post explaining a very concrete, objectively negative > behaviour from the PM team. I've worked at companies where that sort of behaviour was rampant, I've worked > at places where it wasn't, and the difference in the end product is palpable. Yeah, I'm not a fan of dismissing complains by saying that its normal for engineering to think that way about PM. There are different mindsets involved and it is definitely normal for them not to see eye to eye all of the time. It is also normal for them to want to prioritize things differently and there are some delicate balancing acts to be played between meeting legitimate engineering needs and pragmatically driving a product forward. But sometimes, the PM really is causing problems by preventing those things from happening or by getting in the way of his own objectives.
- abalone 9y ago
  > even if it's just anecdotal... there does seem to be some measurable degradation in their Apple's standards as of lately You just characterized anecdotal evidence as "measurable". That's exactly the logical fallacy at work here. Non-anecdotal evidence of Apple's quality standards: The super long iPad upgrade cycle. It's stretched out and impacting Apple's bottom line because >3 year old iPads still work perfect.
  - exBarrelSpoiler 9y ago

PakG1 9y ago

If you're not receiving criticism, you don't matter.

Someone1234 9y ago
"There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses" - Bjarne Stroustrup I've found that quote to apply to everything. Familiarity breads contempt, even just from boredom, or wanting to shift blame for the monotony of the task you're using the tool for. For example I think Excel is a great piece of software, but I know someone who spends all day every day in it doing dull but important spreadsheets. They're what I consider an Excel expert. But they hate Excel because every little minor issue is magnified for them because they spend all day every day in it.
- gurkendoktor 9y ago
  I agree that this kind of criticism exists. However, that doesn't mean that all criticism is invalid, or that a large amount of criticism is necessarily a marker of success. Some software examples: Internet Explorer has not been winning the browser wars for a decade. I've deleted Skype after its interface had been sufficiently ruined, and I don't know anyone who still uses it for business. When iTunes got too annoying, I left its ecosystem for Spotify. It's not looking good for Siri in the battle for the smart home. Speaking of programming languages, I complain a lot about Swift, don't use it, and am moving in the general direction of IntelliJ IDEs. Excel and C++ got lucky, they will be hard to replace.

epistasis 9y ago

It funny, while rare bugs are part of the problem, fundamental design is a problem that confronts me much more. The epidemic spread of animations that reduce functionality and responsiveness are pretty unforgivable. This is something that affects all users that try to interact with their phones, and I'm getting pretty sick of modal switches between "accepts touch input" and "doesn't accept input" when there are no visual indicators of the modality of the current moment. Oh how I long for the old iPhone 4 and it's greater responsiveness and more fluid UX.

fbdjskajxb 9y ago
In the settings under Accessibility there is “Reduce Motion”, which takes away most of the animations.
- epistasis 9y ago
  Thats not quite correct; it replaces swooping movement with fades. However the same design problems I mentioned persist.
cageface 9y ago
Animations are one of the reasons I use Android. iOS is just littered with gratuitous animations that needlessly slow down the interface. My two least favorite are the home screen zoom-in effect you get every time you unlock the device and the animated text on typing autocomplete suggestions. And you can't disable either of these without disabling system animations entirety. This stuff is symptomatic of Apple's love of form over function, also manifested in dumb and costly UI gimmicks like 3D touch.
- lloeki 9y ago
  > form over function Properly designed animations are function: they give a sense of place and help in creating a navigation hierarchy instead of having things pop into and out of existence. > iOS is just littered with gratuitous animations that needlessly slow down the interface Their gratuitousness is evaluated by you by the "slowdown" they bring. The only slowdown they bring me is when they're not interruptible/concurrent, but that's a bug, like the calculator app's one. > My two least favorite are the home screen zoom-in effect you get every time you unlock the device Unless I'm literally trying to race the beam, by the time I move my finger from the home button to a position over the screen the animation has completed. The animation is interruptible and you can tap or swipe right through it. > and the animated text on typing autocomplete suggestions How is that slowing you down? You just type <space> which triggers the animation yet merrily continue as the animation proceeds while you are already inputting the next words. > costly UI gimmicks like 3D touch To each his own: I use it everyday to peek at things and multitask, it's a real timesaver.

askafriend 9y ago

Absolutely agree with Sinofsky here to a large extent - there is little precedent at the scale some of these companies are operating at in 2018. My original comment was to more spark a certain type of discussion more than anything else. It's cool to see other Apple engineers and PMs chime in with their perspective.

pdpi 9y ago

It's not "Engineer thinks PM is a bozo", it's a post explaining a very concrete, objectively negative behaviour from the PM team. I've worked at companies where that sort of behaviour was rampant, I've worked at places where it wasn't, and the difference in the end product is palpable. Second, even if it's just anecdotal, I have personally been experiencing issues with my tMBP at work that I haven't had with any previous laptops going back to a G4 iBook. Stuff like random crashes, parts of the screen failing to render properly, etc. IT says that they're experiencing more of that sort of complaint with the current gen than they have with others in the past. The "sensationalist anecdote-driven news cycle" is blowing things out of proportion, to be sure, but there does seem to be some measurable degradation in their Apple's standards as of lately.

jsight 9y ago
> It's not "Engineer thinks PM is a bozo", it's a post explaining a very concrete, objectively negative > behaviour from the PM team. I've worked at companies where that sort of behaviour was rampant, I've worked > at places where it wasn't, and the difference in the end product is palpable. Yeah, I'm not a fan of dismissing complains by saying that its normal for engineering to think that way about PM. There are different mindsets involved and it is definitely normal for them not to see eye to eye all of the time. It is also normal for them to want to prioritize things differently and there are some delicate balancing acts to be played between meeting legitimate engineering needs and pragmatically driving a product forward. But sometimes, the PM really is causing problems by preventing those things from happening or by getting in the way of his own objectives.
abalone 9y ago
> even if it's just anecdotal... there does seem to be some measurable degradation in their Apple's standards as of lately You just characterized anecdotal evidence as "measurable". That's exactly the logical fallacy at work here. Non-anecdotal evidence of Apple's quality standards: The super long iPad upgrade cycle. It's stretched out and impacting Apple's bottom line because >3 year old iPads still work perfect.
- exBarrelSpoiler 9y ago