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Take 100 sword bearing barbarians and form them in a circle shoulder to shoulder facing inward. Take 120 legionaries and form them in a circle inside the barbar

Take 100 sword bearing barbarians and form them in a circle shoulder to shoulder facing inward. Take 120 legionaries and form them in a circle inside the barbarians circle, also shoulder to shoulder but facing outward. The legionaries circle can't hold 120 men, or even 100, it's likely closer to 90, so the other 30 legionaries have to wait inside the circle. So now it's 100 vs. 90, each of the fighting legionaries on the circle has to fight the man in front of them, while avoiding a thrust from the extra men along side them. Meanwhile the other 30 wait, listening as their comrades are being slowly killed. But it never begins as a circle. Instead the solid line of legionaries is outflanked, barbarians rush around them causing panic in the rear lines at both sides. The men at the end of the line are butchered quickly, they can't fight the men in front of them while being attacked from the side. So masses of romans at the ends of the lines were killed and the survivors on the ends ran back behind the center of the line until they formed a tightly bound ball of men, those buried in the center unable to fight, while the now greater numbers of their opponents are free to attack the outer line from all directions.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago
I thought the Romans had good luck with the 'turtle'? Where they formed a square shield wall with archers inside...
- valuearb 9y ago
  No time to form a turtle formation. Also I think that was only used when storming walls.
Someone 9y ago
”The legionaries circle can't hold 120 men, or even 100, it's likely closer to 90” For that to happen, the radius of the circle of Romans has to be ¾ of that of the circle of barbarians. With 2 meters distance between their heads, that would make a radius of 6 meters vs 8 meters, and circumferences of 36 and 48 meters, or about half a meter per man. Tight, but yes, at that scale, the outside army has the benefit. These armies were larger, though. At 900 defenders and the same distance between the lines, there would be 930 attackers. At 9,000 defenders, there would be 9,030. ”barbarians rush around them causing panic”. Panic is what I put in as an option, and what surprises me. I would hope the Roman army, knowingly marching into enemy lines in a fairly shallow column would be prepared to see enemies appear in their flanks. What you describe must have happened, but I don’t see how an army that large with such superior numbers would get there, unless its soldiers weren’t as good as those of the enemy in some way by quite some margin. Lack of leadership decreasing soldier resilience? Lack of experience?
- valuearb 9y ago
  First they weren't professional soldiers. They were farmers. Professional or not, being outflanked is terrifying. Second, the troops weren't identical. Hannibal had very experienced mercenaries with all sorts of different weapons, and his cavalry was far better than the romans. Third, Varro thought he'd crush the center of Hannibal's line and force the Carthaginians to panic as they fall back into the river by stacking Roman forces far deeper than usual. That shortened their line and made it easier to outflank. And pushing back Hannibals center naturally pushed his forces into an enveloping crescent shape. Fourth, the Roman infantrymen didn't know what was going on. The wind was in their face, blowing dust. The Carthagian army made enormous noise as it attacked. The roman troops were thirsty and hungry, Varro had drawn up his troops early before they could eat or drink. Lastly what destroyed the Roman cohesion was the loss of their cavalary. The Numidian cavalry crushed them on one side and barbarian cavalry crushed them on the other. Then the carthagians could wheel and attack the roman infantry from the back and sides, while their cavalry cut off any retreat.

JoeAltmaier 9y ago

I thought the Romans had good luck with the 'turtle'? Where they formed a square shield wall with archers inside...

valuearb 9y ago
No time to form a turtle formation. Also I think that was only used when storming walls.

Someone 9y ago

”The legionaries circle can't hold 120 men, or even 100, it's likely closer to 90” For that to happen, the radius of the circle of Romans has to be ¾ of that of the circle of barbarians. With 2 meters distance between their heads, that would make a radius of 6 meters vs 8 meters, and circumferences of 36 and 48 meters, or about half a meter per man. Tight, but yes, at that scale, the outside army has the benefit. These armies were larger, though. At 900 defenders and the same distance between the lines, there would be 930 attackers. At 9,000 defenders, there would be 9,030. ”barbarians rush around them causing panic”. Panic is what I put in as an option, and what surprises me. I would hope the Roman army, knowingly marching into enemy lines in a fairly shallow column would be prepared to see enemies appear in their flanks. What you describe must have happened, but I don’t see how an army that large with such superior numbers would get there, unless its soldiers weren’t as good as those of the enemy in some way by quite some margin. Lack of leadership decreasing soldier resilience? Lack of experience?

valuearb 9y ago
First they weren't professional soldiers. They were farmers. Professional or not, being outflanked is terrifying. Second, the troops weren't identical. Hannibal had very experienced mercenaries with all sorts of different weapons, and his cavalry was far better than the romans. Third, Varro thought he'd crush the center of Hannibal's line and force the Carthaginians to panic as they fall back into the river by stacking Roman forces far deeper than usual. That shortened their line and made it easier to outflank. And pushing back Hannibals center naturally pushed his forces into an enveloping crescent shape. Fourth, the Roman infantrymen didn't know what was going on. The wind was in their face, blowing dust. The Carthagian army made enormous noise as it attacked. The roman troops were thirsty and hungry, Varro had drawn up his troops early before they could eat or drink. Lastly what destroyed the Roman cohesion was the loss of their cavalary. The Numidian cavalry crushed them on one side and barbarian cavalry crushed them on the other. Then the carthagians could wheel and attack the roman infantry from the back and sides, while their cavalry cut off any retreat.