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1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. 2., The EU is a very rich, large market - considered

1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. 2., The EU is a very rich, large market - considered the single largest economy in the world (GDP per capita). Good luck not targeting it with your products. 3., The pendulum around data protection is swinging back, this is normal. Apple saw it and adjusted already. Google is cooperating and staying quiet. Only FB is stupid enough to fight in courts.

nordsieck 9y ago
> 1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. Anyone can claim jurisdiction. Enforcement is another matter entirely. If there is no presence in Europe, I can't imagine how the they would collect.
- jacquesm 9y ago
  Yes, unfortunately, in the case of FB there is.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Unfortunately?
    - jacquesm 9y ago
      For them. Fortunately for the rest of us, they have a solid foot on the ground both in NL and Ireland.
      - chrisper 9y ago
        I see. For a second it seemed you were defending Facebook!
        jacquesm 9y ago
        > For a second it seemed you were defending Facebook! I would not rule it out on principle but it is highly unlikely. If FB were to be shut down tomorrow I would probably not even notice.
        krick 9y ago
        > If FB were to be shut down tomorrow I would probably not even notice. Based just on the fact that you are on HN, this is, uhm... highly unlikely. By the way, I wonder how it would actually look like. I mean, if FB was actually blocked in Germany or something like that, I imagine people (the victims of FB crimes) would very much vocally defend FB, claiming they don't give a fuck about their privacy. Which I cannot decide if it's funny or not.
- falcolas 9y ago
  If you're large enough to be noticed and fined, you've probably got a corporate presence in EU; if only for the tax benefits. I've worked with companies as small as 200 people who have a presence in the EU.
- yxhuvud 9y ago
  Perhaps not so surprisingly, most people that would want to pay money for data on European data, resides in Europe. And if you receive payments from Europe, you are definitely in the jurisdiction.
- robryan 9y ago
  Depends on the treaties setup with the US, assuming that is where the company is based. It may be possible to take some EU judgements to a US court and have them enforce it.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  I would target the channels whereby the funds from their massive advertising sales are being routed, probably Facebook have no business in the EU unless they are selling advertising to EU companies
AndrewKemendo 9y ago
Addressing your point #1, the EU has no enforcement mechanism for fines or otherwise unless you have physical presence (servers, offices etc...) in an EU member nation or are processing money on EU run systems. So if a social media platform strictly based outside of the EU "exports PII" from an EU resident there isn't anything the EU can do about it, other than asking google or apple to take their app off the app store or somehow blocking the domain across the EU.
- yxhuvud 9y ago
  You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? Noneuropean companies already have to pay VAT on stuff they export to EU, so it is not as if there is no big collection already going on.
  - AndrewKemendo 9y ago
    Yes exactly, if you don't have EU customers then again there is no risk.
  - tzs 9y ago
    Suppose I put up a website hosted on a server I own in a non-EU country. A person from the EU visits the site, I gather their personal information, and I sell that information to a non-EU buyer blatantly in violation of EU privacy law. I have no offices, bank accounts, property, service providers, subsidiaries, suppliers, customers, etc., in the EU. > You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? I don't have any money being transferred to me from European customers. Unless the EU has a treaty with the non-EU country me and my site are in that provides for the enforcement of EU fines in this area in me or my buyer's country, how are they going to actually enforce a fine against me?
    - kaybe 9y ago
      You can probably get a lot less if you try to sell the data to non-EU entities compared to local ones though. Same for advertisement prices.
jjeaff 9y ago
Largest economy in the world per capita? Where did you get your numbers? GDP per cápita in the EU is around $37k. The US is $57k per cápita. That puts it at 46th in the rankings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Unio...
peoplewindow 9y ago
1. GDPR is a good example of why to abandon the market imo. It's not even clear how it affects backup strategies, let alone more complicated questions. Most vaguely written law I've seen in a long time. I can't help but suspect it's designed to be violated, as a revenue source. But just don't set up a corporate presence in the EU and they can't do much. 2. I remember people saying that about China. The market was too big to ignore. Somehow Facebook got banned in China completely and did fine. Same for YouTube, Twitter, etc. They're companies any founder could be proud of. You could serve the US market and make money advertising to EU member state citizens without having a corporate presence in the EU, it'd still be a nice business. 3. Hardly, Apple / Ireland are appealing the EU tax ruling, Google has been getting fined repeatedly for things like Google Shopping and maybe Android, FB getting fined is nothing new. And what's "stupid" about fighting in courts ... unless you believe the EU's courts are kangaroo courts that are guaranteed to always take the EU's side? Why shouldn't they appeal? It's hardly like these cases are bulletproof. Most of them can't even explain what precisely was wrong.
- SCHiM 9y ago
  I have a hard time seeing how you came to your conclusions about point 3. The rulings seem crystal clear and are explained in normal language. Take the google shopping case: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm Seems very clear what is wrong. I'm thinking that perhaps it's a good thing that future companies like FB can't take off in Europe. The need for a product like FB is clear, and if the rules prohibit FB like companies from taking root, then it gives grassroots or open source a chance. We'll see.
  - peoplewindow 9y ago
    I disagree. I followed the shopping case closely. At no point was it obvious what Google did wrong, or why providing shopping results is a problem but not maps or videos, or how you would predict and avoid such problems in a new company and product line. Nor are any of the other cases clear cut. Apple's case isn't even about Apple, it's more like a power struggle between the Commission and the Irish government. We saw how Germans reacted to the rise of Facebook years ago. It wasn't through some 'grassroots' social network or open source. It was simply a local clone of Facebook, China style, right down to cloning the UI: https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/18/facebook-sues-german-social-network-studivz/ https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/18/facebook-sues-german-socia... If the EU succeeds in convincing the rest of the world that it sees their firms as cash cows, all that'll happen is that people who live in member states will have to live with crappy local ripoffs - no different to China.

nordsieck 9y ago

> 1., If you store data of EU residents, you are under EU jurisdiction (GDPR) and can be targeted by fines. Anyone can claim jurisdiction. Enforcement is another matter entirely. If there is no presence in Europe, I can't imagine how the they would collect.

jacquesm 9y ago
Yes, unfortunately, in the case of FB there is.
- chrisper 9y ago
  Unfortunately?
  - jacquesm 9y ago
    For them. Fortunately for the rest of us, they have a solid foot on the ground both in NL and Ireland.
    - chrisper 9y ago
      I see. For a second it seemed you were defending Facebook!
      - jacquesm 9y ago
        > For a second it seemed you were defending Facebook! I would not rule it out on principle but it is highly unlikely. If FB were to be shut down tomorrow I would probably not even notice.
        krick 9y ago
        > If FB were to be shut down tomorrow I would probably not even notice. Based just on the fact that you are on HN, this is, uhm... highly unlikely. By the way, I wonder how it would actually look like. I mean, if FB was actually blocked in Germany or something like that, I imagine people (the victims of FB crimes) would very much vocally defend FB, claiming they don't give a fuck about their privacy. Which I cannot decide if it's funny or not.
falcolas 9y ago
If you're large enough to be noticed and fined, you've probably got a corporate presence in EU; if only for the tax benefits. I've worked with companies as small as 200 people who have a presence in the EU.
yxhuvud 9y ago
Perhaps not so surprisingly, most people that would want to pay money for data on European data, resides in Europe. And if you receive payments from Europe, you are definitely in the jurisdiction.
robryan 9y ago
Depends on the treaties setup with the US, assuming that is where the company is based. It may be possible to take some EU judgements to a US court and have them enforce it.
jimnotgym 9y ago
I would target the channels whereby the funds from their massive advertising sales are being routed, probably Facebook have no business in the EU unless they are selling advertising to EU companies

AndrewKemendo 9y ago

Addressing your point #1, the EU has no enforcement mechanism for fines or otherwise unless you have physical presence (servers, offices etc...) in an EU member nation or are processing money on EU run systems. So if a social media platform strictly based outside of the EU "exports PII" from an EU resident there isn't anything the EU can do about it, other than asking google or apple to take their app off the app store or somehow blocking the domain across the EU.

yxhuvud 9y ago
You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? Noneuropean companies already have to pay VAT on stuff they export to EU, so it is not as if there is no big collection already going on.
- AndrewKemendo 9y ago
  Yes exactly, if you don't have EU customers then again there is no risk.
- tzs 9y ago
  Suppose I put up a website hosted on a server I own in a non-EU country. A person from the EU visits the site, I gather their personal information, and I sell that information to a non-EU buyer blatantly in violation of EU privacy law. I have no offices, bank accounts, property, service providers, subsidiaries, suppliers, customers, etc., in the EU. > You do realize the EU can stop or confiscate the money that is transferred to you from European customers? I don't have any money being transferred to me from European customers. Unless the EU has a treaty with the non-EU country me and my site are in that provides for the enforcement of EU fines in this area in me or my buyer's country, how are they going to actually enforce a fine against me?
  - kaybe 9y ago
    You can probably get a lot less if you try to sell the data to non-EU entities compared to local ones though. Same for advertisement prices.

jjeaff 9y ago

Largest economy in the world per capita? Where did you get your numbers? GDP per cápita in the EU is around $37k. The US is $57k per cápita. That puts it at 46th in the rankings. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Unio...

peoplewindow 9y ago

1. GDPR is a good example of why to abandon the market imo. It's not even clear how it affects backup strategies, let alone more complicated questions. Most vaguely written law I've seen in a long time. I can't help but suspect it's designed to be violated, as a revenue source. But just don't set up a corporate presence in the EU and they can't do much. 2. I remember people saying that about China. The market was too big to ignore. Somehow Facebook got banned in China completely and did fine. Same for YouTube, Twitter, etc. They're companies any founder could be proud of. You could serve the US market and make money advertising to EU member state citizens without having a corporate presence in the EU, it'd still be a nice business. 3. Hardly, Apple / Ireland are appealing the EU tax ruling, Google has been getting fined repeatedly for things like Google Shopping and maybe Android, FB getting fined is nothing new. And what's "stupid" about fighting in courts ... unless you believe the EU's courts are kangaroo courts that are guaranteed to always take the EU's side? Why shouldn't they appeal? It's hardly like these cases are bulletproof. Most of them can't even explain what precisely was wrong.

SCHiM 9y ago
I have a hard time seeing how you came to your conclusions about point 3. The rulings seem crystal clear and are explained in normal language. Take the google shopping case: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm Seems very clear what is wrong. I'm thinking that perhaps it's a good thing that future companies like FB can't take off in Europe. The need for a product like FB is clear, and if the rules prohibit FB like companies from taking root, then it gives grassroots or open source a chance. We'll see.
- peoplewindow 9y ago
  I disagree. I followed the shopping case closely. At no point was it obvious what Google did wrong, or why providing shopping results is a problem but not maps or videos, or how you would predict and avoid such problems in a new company and product line. Nor are any of the other cases clear cut. Apple's case isn't even about Apple, it's more like a power struggle between the Commission and the Irish government. We saw how Germans reacted to the rise of Facebook years ago. It wasn't through some 'grassroots' social network or open source. It was simply a local clone of Facebook, China style, right down to cloning the UI: https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/18/facebook-sues-german-social-network-studivz/ https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/18/facebook-sues-german-socia... If the EU succeeds in convincing the rest of the world that it sees their firms as cash cows, all that'll happen is that people who live in member states will have to live with crappy local ripoffs - no different to China.