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Marrying Vega and Zen: The AMD Ryzen 5 2400G Review
- Quequau 9y agoI'm sorta surprised that AMD hasn't made a "smallest Zen with double the biggest Vega" to appeal to the cryptocoin crowd.
- detaro 9y agoI don't see right now how that would have more appeal than dedicated GPUs to them? Is there a market for "normal PC with small mining-capacity on the side" vs fairly dedicated rigs? I'd think nearly nobody is buying <$200 GPUs for mining?
- leetcrew 9y agoi really doubt it. in a mining rig all power spent on components other than the GPU is essentially pure overhead that cuts into the thin margin of a consumer setup. you need several discrete GPUs before it starts to be worthwhile at all.
- simion314 9y agoI think everyone is expecting mining to fall and they don't want to invest the R&D and create the manufacturing , build the hardware and in the end it won't sell. Mining seems like a gamble so I would personally not risk it, if they want the miners can buy the regular GPUs
- oreo81 9y agoIs this a joke? I really can't tell if you're being sarcastic.
- cslarson 9y agoI recently (yesterday) calculated[0] that Ethereum is roughly 64% of the GPU mining market by power. That's a lower bound - it's likely much higher, maybe 75+%. Hybrid POS/POW is expected in the fall and will likely come with a healthy drop in the block reward. Following that will be full POS (2019?) after which, at least on the main Ethereum chain, there will be no mining. I'd like to see the block reward dropped much sooner but that's a long shot request. [0]: https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/7wufiq/ethereum_is_64_of_all_gpu_mining_by_power_09gw_of/ https://www.reddit.com/r/ethereum/comments/7wufiq/ethereum_i...
- bryanlarsen 9y agoIt sounds like Samsung is making something like that, based on vague announcement on their earnings call. They've been working on a new GPU for several years now, making a miner from it may help them validate the design while they're working on the drivers for general purpose & gaming usage.
- dragontamer 9y agoBTC is ASIC based now. No GPU will ever compete in the BTC realm. Etherium is Dagger-Hashimoto, which tries to be RAM-bandwidth bound. GDDR5 and HBM2, which can achieve RAM-bandwidths of 500+ GB/s (compared to a typical CPU+ Dual-channel DDR4 with only 50GB/s), so Etherium's best machine are the cheap GPUs with GDDR5. HBM2 (Vega64 and Titan V) are faster, but I don't remember if they win in price/performance. HBM2 might win in ongoing costs due to being more power-efficient. Monero is Cryptonight, which tries to be memory-latency bound (Ideally: executing out of L3 cache of CPUs). Unfortunately, it seems like the miners have figured out how to parallelize it, as HBM2-based cards manage to perform incredibly well in Cryptonight. Basically, the only cryptocoin that MIGHT be worthwhile on an APU connected to DDR4 is Monero / Cryptonight. Even then, because Cryptonight is primarily memory-latency bound, I doubt that the GPU-portion would be any faster than the CPU. The majority of the algorithm is waiting for L3 cache to respond. The L2 Cache in GCN (and probably Vega) is 512kb and shared between 4 compute units. So its too small to execute Cryptonight. As such, why execute from the on-board GPU when the CPU already maxes out the L3 cache? Cryptonight requires 2MB of low-latency access per instance. Threadripper with 16 cores and 32MB of L3 is basically the most ideal CPU setup. But Vega64 managed to outperform Threadripper by significant margins, probably because HBM2 RAM is incredible (and there seems to be some kind of unexpected parallelization trick in the Cryptonight algorithm)
- icelancer 9y ago>> Basically, the only cryptocoin that MIGHT be worthwhile on an APU connected to DDR4 is Monero / Cryptonight. Even then, because Cryptonight is primarily memory-latency bound, I doubt that the GPU-portion would be any faster than the CPU. The majority of the algorithm is waiting for L3 cache to respond. Good guess. The CPU is nearly twice as fast as APU, and limited by L3 cache as you correctly noted. http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-ryzen-5-2400g-mining-performance-nicehash-xmr-stak_202662 http://www.legitreviews.com/amd-ryzen-5-2400g-mining-perform...
- dragontamer 9y agoThanks. Its always good to see real benchmarks. One "qualm" is that AMD's APU is a very interesting platform, which can share pointers and memory between the CPU and GPU. Some degree of caching is shared between the CPU and GPU since both are on the same die! Its not a big deal for cryptonight (which basically pushes AES-NI instructions: so its fastest on the CPU anyway. And L3 is so small that only 2-instances can run on the Ryzen 5 2400G). But in the general case (say: maybe Ethash, which isn't as latency bound / L3 bound), there may be custom code that can be written to take advantage of AMD's HSA platform. Code which doesn't exist yet (and therefore can't be benchmarked). In part, the ROCm project doesn't even have Raven Ridge support yet, so HSA coding / CPU/GPU sharing can't really take place yet. But looking forward: it might be an interesting project to see EtHash implemented as HSA / ROCm code.
- hs86 9y agoI really like that AnandTech's print view is just the same layout but everything on a single page.
- Symmetry 9y agoI was going to "I sort of wish I could get a Thinkpad or Latitude with one of these in it" then I googles and realized that both will be coming out this year.
- karimf 9y agoRemember that this is the desktop APU, with 65W TDP. On the article they mentioned that AMD doesn't have any plan on the laptop APU. Edit: oops, they released the laptop APU earlier, like ryzen 7 2700U.
- pepsi 9y agoThe Ryzen 7 2700U and Ryzen 5 2500U have integrated Vega GPUs.
- masklinn 9y agocTDP down to 46W sounds about OK for a "workstation"-type laptop. Unclear whether it will be BGA-packaged though.
- pjmlp 9y agoI can imagine seeing it on a Thinkpad P model.
- TazeTSchnitzel 9y agoThis is the desktop (AM4) version of the same Raven Ridge silicon as in the existing Ryzen Mobile product. Laptops are already shipping with the mobile TDP APUs since a little while ago.
- Symmetry 9y agoYeah, laptops will have the equivalent lower power chip in the 15-25W range and 2 GHz instead of 3.5. Doesn't change my feelings. :)
- Narishma 9y ago
- Certhas 9y agotl;dr: "With the Ryzen 5 2400G, AMD has completely shut down the sub-$100 graphics card market. As a choice for gamers on a budget, those building systems in the region of $500, it becomes the processor to pick."
- snvzz 9y agoThe not-really-better nvidia 1030 they're comparing it against is ~$100, making the APU a much better choice indeed.
- zrm 9y ago> With the Ryzen 5 2400G, AMD has completely shut down the sub-$100 graphics card market. Well, almost. Integrated graphics generally take the place of additional CPU cores. For example, there is no 8-core Ryzen with integrated graphics. So if you need cores (like for compiling code) then you end up with a discrete graphics card even if you don't need fast graphics. I actually wish Intel would make a cheap discrete graphics card for that purpose, because they have the most stable Linux graphics drivers.
- dralley 9y agoQuad cores are still sufficient for games. Some games benefit from more, especially if you're also streaming, but not by that much.
- fyi1183 9y agoTo be fair, AMD's Linux drivers have been pretty solid for a while now. I don't have an objective comparison, but the general perception definitely has some catching up to do. For those Ryzens you'll probably need a very recent kernel, but that's to be expected with new hardware.
- TwoNineA 9y agoEspecially with Kernel 4.15, AMDGPU got HDMI audio out.
- Nullabillity 9y ago
- lykr0n 9y agoI think it would be amazing if there were also able to stick a GB or two of HBM onto the same chip as kind of a L4 cache / VRAM for the GPU. Performance would be amazing, especially considering that Zen's performance gets better with RAM speed and GPUs are almost entirely RAM starved.
- wastedhours 9y agoI've never considered that as an idea before, but now am left wondering why it hasn't been done. Guessing the manufacturers make more money from full-unit upgrades than they'd expect to make from incremental memory unit purchases (even if they made the RAM slot proprietary).
- bryanlarsen 9y agoIntel has a new chip coming out with AMD graphics and HBM memory: https://www.anandtech.com/show/12220/how-to-make-8th-gen-more-complex-intel-core-with-radeon-rx-vega-m-graphics-launched https://www.anandtech.com/show/12220/how-to-make-8th-gen-mor...
- pkaye 9y agoHBM is fairly new so it is probably a cost issue for the target market.
- undersuit 9y agoThere was a time where you could put an extra DDR2/3 DIMM on some AMD motherboards to complement their chipset based graphics. http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/790gx-graphics-sideport,2088-2.html http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/790gx-graphics-sideport,...
- myrandomcomment 9y agoI have been waiting for this for a new HTPC built that can also do a good job as a gaming system. Now comes the fun of reading each motherboard spec in detail to figure out if it can output 4K@60 (HDMI2.0?) By fun, I mean pain as this info is hard to find on the boards I have looked at so far.
- saas_co_de 9y agoI would have hoped that this wouldn't be an issue but looked at specs on a few itx boards and they are only listing HDMI 1.4. Major bummer if that is true.
- nnain 9y agoFor 4K@60 or 1440p@144, you would need a motherboard with 'Display Port' not just HDMI. That should eliminate quite a few.
- zokier 9y agoWrong. https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=133 https://www.hdmi.org/press/press_release.aspx?prid=133 > September 4, 2013 – IFA 2013 – HDMI Forum, Inc., a non-profit, mutual benefit corporation, today announced the release of Version 2.0 of the HDMI Specification. This latest HDMI Specification, the first to be developed by the HDMI Forum, offers a significant increase in bandwidth (up to 18Gbps) to support new features such as 4K@50/60 (2160p),
- nnain 9y agoAh thanks for the check. I would still recommend getting a motherboard with Display Port(DP) to future proof the core components. I bought a gaming monitor 2 months back, and it came with only the DP cable. I see DP recommended by most game rig builders.
- zanny 9y agoHDMI 2.0 does 4k@60.
- 9y ago
- shmerl 9y agoAre there any Dell laptops with Ryzen APUs?
- yndoendo 9y agoNot that I know of so far, still only sell AMD A-XX laptops. Also looking forward to an AMD Ryzen Mobile (U) that can replace a XPS 13, since Intel is not an option.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- AareyBaba 9y agoNo Dell laptops so far. Just these three: ACER Swift 3 with Ryzen 5 2500U Vega8, 4GB Lenovo IdeaPad 720S with Ryzen 7 2700U, Vega10, 8GB HP Envy X360 with Ryzen 5 2500U Vega8, 16GB There is an all-in-one DELL Inspiron 7775 AIO, Ryzen 7 1700 CPU + RX 580 GPU, 16GB
- shmerl 9y agoI see. Any idea when they are coming though?
- polskibus 9y agoWhat's the cryptocurrency mining efficiency vs price ratio like? Is this going to be the new Rx 580 in terms of popularity?
- nnain 9y agoThis is such a breath of fresh air for PC gamers who have been waiting to build a budget gaming machine, ever since the crypto-mining frenzy messed up the GPU market. Most GPUs are selling at a 30%ish price hike right now!
- xigency 9y agoPC building is a nightmare right now between RAM and GPU prices. It's clear that they are not a valued demographic to parts manufacturers. Anyway, I would recommend a Ryzen 3 + GTX 1050 at a minimum for a gaming computer. The performance here on GTA V, a several years old game, is pretty poor.
- revelation 9y agoActually, they are. Arguably it's the cryptominer fools that the part manufacturers want nothing to do with, because chances are you ramp up manufacturing now (so 3-6 months until you actually see higher supply) and by then they are on to the next coin fad.
- walrus01 9y agoMost GPUs that are 2GB or less have been almost unaffected by the price hikes (geforce 1030/1050/1050Ti) because you need more than 2GB of RAM to mine Ethereum these days. It's the 4GB and higher RAM cards that have crazy prices.
- stcredzero 9y agoWhat are the chances that AMD will ever try to shut down the $200-$250 graphics card market?
- jtuente 9y agoIf they can socket a Vega 16+ APU, they might be able to put a dent in the sub-$200 market. The Intel G platform uses Vega20 and Vega24 with HBM, but they aren't socketed.
- mizzack 9y agoNot gonna happen with DDR4. Clock for clock, the Vega8 and Vega11 go toe to toe when OC'd, pointing to bandwidth starvation. Maybe with a bigger package they could throw HBM2 on there... Something like a Ryzen 7 2 CCX configuration (8c/16t) + Vega ~20 + 4GB HBM2 in a package that fits the Threadripper/Epyc socket. At that point you're stuck paying a premium for the X399 platform, though, you should probably just buy a dGPU :)
- nerpderp83 9y agoWould u recommend over clocking memory for the best perf increase?
- mizzack 9y agoRAM speed is definitely important for CPU and GPU perf, but much like other Ryzen parts it hits a point where higher end kits provide little to no benefit. 3200MHz is about where you start hitting seriously diminishing returns, especially considering cost of high end RAM kits. You can see a much larger gaming benefit by overclocking the IGP. In most tests I saw today, an overclocked Vega8(1100MHz) in the $99 part easily catches up to the stock Vega11(1250MHz) and can be pushed to ~1500MHz. https://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/xRaven-3-Time-Spy-rev.png.pagespeed.ic.QuYRXcT33J.webp https://www.kitguru.net/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/xRaven-3-... https://tpucdn.com/reviews/AMD/Ryzen_5_2400G_Vega_11/images/memory_scaling2.jpg https://tpucdn.com/reviews/AMD/Ryzen_5_2400G_Vega_11/images/...
- singularity2001 9y agoThe one news I'm hoping to hear from AMD is that they produce a deep learning TPU.
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- walrus01 9y agoPending good motherboard support for 2160p60 (4K 60Hz), the $169 CPU looks like a great choice for a 4K home theatre PC. Just a few months ago I built a Ryzen 1500X based HTPC with a geforce 1030 passively cooled card. The geforce1030, based on a slower version but the same architecture as the 1050/1070/1080, gets me hardware accelerated H265/HEVC and the capability to play most MKV files without dropping frames at up to very high bitrates. Typical playback for something like a 2160p60 24GB copy of the original Blade Runner is at about 18% CPU usage on all four cores using a recent VLC beta. But the total money spent was something like $89 motherboard + $89 video card + $165 CPU. It would be nice to not have to buy the video card.
- DCKing 9y agoBe aware for 4K that almost no motherboards exist at this time that can pair one of these APUs with a HDMI 2.0 output. Almost all AM4 motherboards come with HDMI 1.4 outputs that limit 4K output to 30Hz - probably fine for movies, noticable in the UI, and not great for games (even if rendered at lower than native res). Though there are some current gen AM4 boards with HDMI 2.0 and native 4K60 output, it's somehow a premium feature that is bizarrely reserved for high end gaming motherboards. The next generation of motherboard chipsets from AMD should remediate this, but motherboards with these will not launch before April.
- walrus01 9y agoYes, so the motherboards are now the main problem... in 2018 I certainly wouldn't build anything that's only capable of 30Hz. Would be a total waste of money. My current setup has a pretty basic B250 chipset microATX motherboard (no wifi, etc) which is fine because the design was with a dedicated geforce1030. I'm sure that by April there will be similarly priced motherboards that do support 2160p60 out on their built in HDMI port, for use with these new CPUs.
- gascan 9y agoI'm a bit fuzzy on this, but I think any motherboard with DisplayPort 1.2 or better will do the job. DisplayPort has been ahead of HDMI on the 4K60Hz game. Picking a random NewEgg motherboard with AM4 & DisplayPort, it looks like it would do the job (see Specs): https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813132988 https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681313... So does the cheapest board: https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813144135 https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E1681314...