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Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of the people.

Xylakant 9y ago
The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically speaking, heroin is less harmful than alcohol. It's very hard to actually overdose if the purity is constant. It's a preferred drug for pallative care in many countries since it's effective and relatively easy to use (similar tor morphine). Heroin addicts on a constant regime of pure heroin can be well-functioning members of society. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment So if you truly care about the health of the afflicted persons, legalization with a strict control is the most effective option that is currently on the table.
- meri_dian 9y ago
  I understand what you are saying. I agree that heroin by itself is not very harmful to the body relative to some other drugs. But let me be more clear about what I mean by "death grip". When someone cares so much about a drug that it becomes the focal point of their lives, where they become so utterly ruled by the object of their addiction that friends and family and all else not the drug become secondary fixtures in their lives, then they have become the walking dead and are very much in the death grip. I have seen it with friends. Some are still breathing, some are not. Sure people on medical grade heroin regimens can continue to exist, but the drug will kill them inside nonetheless. Revitalization is possible of course, but it is exceedingly difficult.
  - Xylakant 9y ago
    The point of medical heroine is that people on that regime can and do become well-functioning humans again. It’s not the drug that kills them, it’s the loss of all social support network and the ill effects that come with the situation.
  - tmp-20150107 9y ago
    The point of medical heroin, or other harm reduction programs, is to allow people to get on with their actual life without the all consuming addiction being front and centre all the time. I'm currently on a methadone program in the UK (there aren't any heroin based programmes as far as I know here) and it lets me keep up my job as a software engineer without daily worries about having to make sure I can score and not be 'sick' (i.e. withdrawing) and unable to work or go to the office. A heroin prescription would accomplish the same thing for me, and for people in a worse situation - perhaps unemployed or homeless - it would mean even more, since they could devote their energy to rebuilding their life. Personally, I don't really need a safe injecting space - I own my own home and have a pretty stable lifestyle, but again, I can see how for other addicts it would be incredibly helpful. Again and again, as seen in other comments, it can be seen how despite objections these places provide an objective positive benefit to society.
    - meri_dian 9y ago
      I'm curious to hear about your program. Is the goal to get you clean? Slowly wean you off heroin?
      - skellera 9y ago
        Heroin addiction is 90% looking for or doing something to get more. It’s an incredible time sink. It’s impossible to have a meaningful life like that. What medically administered heroin does is allow people to get that time back so they can rebuild their lives. Once they see that things are better, they become more successful when finally coming off of it. Even if it takes forever, they are still productive members or society instead of a drain.
      - 9y ago
- fiblye 9y ago
  Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it. Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's not for them. People can have beers once in a while and move on. There aren't many people who try heroin a couple times then realize they're busy and drop it forever.
  - Retric 9y ago
    I knows several people that tried Heroin a few times and gave it up, but where addicted to cigarettes. Different people have different drug preferences ans I doubt we have good statistics on this stuff. I like many people where given opioids post surgery and ended up tossing the pills vs finishing the prescription, yet people get really addicted to the same medication.
    - tmp-20150107 9y ago
      Indeed, it's entirely possible for people to take heroin at the weekends or similar, and put it down without problems, and I know several friends who do it irregularly without getting addicted - although only smoking, I've never heard of anyone injecting IV heroin who wasn't an addict...
      - Xylakant 9y ago
        Injections are apparently much more potent than smoking, so it makes sense that people already addicted prefer that to keep the required amount lower. For recreational uses, smoking would just be much more practical.
        tmp-20150107 9y ago
        Indeed. The bio-availability from 'chasing the dragon' on tin-foil is something like 50% or even less, although in the UK at least powdered heroin is adulterated with things like caffeine (which causes heroin to vaporize at a lower temperature) to make smoking more effective. Obviously IV injecting gives 100% bio-availability, though.
fhayde 9y ago
Legalize everything, and offer the appropriate counter-medication at a discounted cost. Heroine costs someone $20 per use? Methadone is $10. You'll never keep drugs out of the hands of people who want them, all you're doing is creating artificial scarcity driving up prices and giving people like Mexican drug cartels huge financial incentives to run drugs into the country. Even if only 1/10th of their drugs make it into the US, as long as there's an demand, that supply will be exponentially worth more, and cause more harm than pharmaceutical grade heroine sold just like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, etc...
- sharemywin 9y ago
  So, turn the Mexican drug cartels over to america drug cartels? Until we fix the cartel problem in the US legalization will do nothing but bring down prices. Look at how it took 30-50 years for "education" in tobacco products. Yes there are examples of countries that have legalized drugs, but without a much better healthcare system in the US it would turn into a huge money grab.
- tmp-20150107 9y ago
  Heh, heroin does cost about that much, same for methadone, at least in the UK. I can get 100ml of 1mg/ml methadone for GBP 10 which will keep me stable for a day or two; a GBP 10 (i.e. 'tenner bag' or 0.2g) of heroin is enough for a single IV shot for many users. Of course, depending on your tolerance, that may well not be enough, but my point is that 'legal' heroin would probably be much cheaper than current 'street' prices. I'm not sure how cannabis prices have varied in places where it's legal in the US, though - do taxes bring the price back to parity with the old 'street' level? I'm guessing it's going to be complicated by the fact that it's still illegal in other states?
wu-ikkyu 9y ago
No one is saying education and legalization will end addiction. Rather, it could make it safer and lead to less overdose deaths.
Broken_Hippo 9y ago
Like others have said, folks won't actually stop using the stuff. Keep it illegal and folks have a higher chance of getting bad stuff, not injecting cleanly or properly, and increases overdose deaths. At least with legalization, you get some science based education before you even try it the first time. For most folks, this is way before they start to inject. You can more easily have physicians and/or pharmacists having frank talks with patients about signs of addiction and have science-based plans to help folks wean off of the prescription drugs. You can have injections done by a trained professional, who calculates your dosage. You can make sure it is the strength on the package. You can be referred to a clinic for addiction. Maybe we can even use some of that money we saved on incarceration to let folks rest at home after injury/surgery without losing their house or their job so that we use less pain medication and reduce risk. We can offer medicine-based addiction services as well instead of AA and NA being the standard treatments. And sure, it won't stop everyone, just like cigarettes. But no one currently starts cigarettes thinking they are completely safe - I surely didn't and I started 20 years ago, though I'm down to 3-4 a day now. We can also not use as many of the scare tactics we use today and be honest about the positive effects folks get from this stuff along with the bad. For some, we might have better alternatives (different ways for coping with boredom and stress might help with things like boredom, which is what actually got me to start around 18). And just to state things: I don't know how it is with heroin addiction, but not all addicts for other drugs are alike. Not everyone is an addict for life. Some folks can be alcoholics but then be completely able to drink casually like everyone else, without re-developing a problem. Others cannot, and I think we do a great disservice to people when we lump them together like this.

Xylakant 9y ago

The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically speaking, heroin is less harmful than alcohol. It's very hard to actually overdose if the purity is constant. It's a preferred drug for pallative care in many countries since it's effective and relatively easy to use (similar tor morphine). Heroin addicts on a constant regime of pure heroin can be well-functioning members of society. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heroin-assisted_treatment So if you truly care about the health of the afflicted persons, legalization with a strict control is the most effective option that is currently on the table.

meri_dian 9y ago
I understand what you are saying. I agree that heroin by itself is not very harmful to the body relative to some other drugs. But let me be more clear about what I mean by "death grip". When someone cares so much about a drug that it becomes the focal point of their lives, where they become so utterly ruled by the object of their addiction that friends and family and all else not the drug become secondary fixtures in their lives, then they have become the walking dead and are very much in the death grip. I have seen it with friends. Some are still breathing, some are not. Sure people on medical grade heroin regimens can continue to exist, but the drug will kill them inside nonetheless. Revitalization is possible of course, but it is exceedingly difficult.
- Xylakant 9y ago
  The point of medical heroine is that people on that regime can and do become well-functioning humans again. It’s not the drug that kills them, it’s the loss of all social support network and the ill effects that come with the situation.
- tmp-20150107 9y ago
  The point of medical heroin, or other harm reduction programs, is to allow people to get on with their actual life without the all consuming addiction being front and centre all the time. I'm currently on a methadone program in the UK (there aren't any heroin based programmes as far as I know here) and it lets me keep up my job as a software engineer without daily worries about having to make sure I can score and not be 'sick' (i.e. withdrawing) and unable to work or go to the office. A heroin prescription would accomplish the same thing for me, and for people in a worse situation - perhaps unemployed or homeless - it would mean even more, since they could devote their energy to rebuilding their life. Personally, I don't really need a safe injecting space - I own my own home and have a pretty stable lifestyle, but again, I can see how for other addicts it would be incredibly helpful. Again and again, as seen in other comments, it can be seen how despite objections these places provide an objective positive benefit to society.
  - meri_dian 9y ago
    I'm curious to hear about your program. Is the goal to get you clean? Slowly wean you off heroin?
    - skellera 9y ago
      Heroin addiction is 90% looking for or doing something to get more. It’s an incredible time sink. It’s impossible to have a meaningful life like that. What medically administered heroin does is allow people to get that time back so they can rebuild their lives. Once they see that things are better, they become more successful when finally coming off of it. Even if it takes forever, they are still productive members or society instead of a drain.
    - 9y ago
fiblye 9y ago
Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it. Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's not for them. People can have beers once in a while and move on. There aren't many people who try heroin a couple times then realize they're busy and drop it forever.
- Retric 9y ago
  I knows several people that tried Heroin a few times and gave it up, but where addicted to cigarettes. Different people have different drug preferences ans I doubt we have good statistics on this stuff. I like many people where given opioids post surgery and ended up tossing the pills vs finishing the prescription, yet people get really addicted to the same medication.
  - tmp-20150107 9y ago
    Indeed, it's entirely possible for people to take heroin at the weekends or similar, and put it down without problems, and I know several friends who do it irregularly without getting addicted - although only smoking, I've never heard of anyone injecting IV heroin who wasn't an addict...
    - Xylakant 9y ago
      Injections are apparently much more potent than smoking, so it makes sense that people already addicted prefer that to keep the required amount lower. For recreational uses, smoking would just be much more practical.
      - tmp-20150107 9y ago
        Indeed. The bio-availability from 'chasing the dragon' on tin-foil is something like 50% or even less, although in the UK at least powdered heroin is adulterated with things like caffeine (which causes heroin to vaporize at a lower temperature) to make smoking more effective. Obviously IV injecting gives 100% bio-availability, though.

fhayde 9y ago

Legalize everything, and offer the appropriate counter-medication at a discounted cost. Heroine costs someone $20 per use? Methadone is $10. You'll never keep drugs out of the hands of people who want them, all you're doing is creating artificial scarcity driving up prices and giving people like Mexican drug cartels huge financial incentives to run drugs into the country. Even if only 1/10th of their drugs make it into the US, as long as there's an demand, that supply will be exponentially worth more, and cause more harm than pharmaceutical grade heroine sold just like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, etc...

sharemywin 9y ago
So, turn the Mexican drug cartels over to america drug cartels? Until we fix the cartel problem in the US legalization will do nothing but bring down prices. Look at how it took 30-50 years for "education" in tobacco products. Yes there are examples of countries that have legalized drugs, but without a much better healthcare system in the US it would turn into a huge money grab.
tmp-20150107 9y ago
Heh, heroin does cost about that much, same for methadone, at least in the UK. I can get 100ml of 1mg/ml methadone for GBP 10 which will keep me stable for a day or two; a GBP 10 (i.e. 'tenner bag' or 0.2g) of heroin is enough for a single IV shot for many users. Of course, depending on your tolerance, that may well not be enough, but my point is that 'legal' heroin would probably be much cheaper than current 'street' prices. I'm not sure how cannabis prices have varied in places where it's legal in the US, though - do taxes bring the price back to parity with the old 'street' level? I'm guessing it's going to be complicated by the fact that it's still illegal in other states?

wu-ikkyu 9y ago

No one is saying education and legalization will end addiction. Rather, it could make it safer and lead to less overdose deaths.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago

Like others have said, folks won't actually stop using the stuff. Keep it illegal and folks have a higher chance of getting bad stuff, not injecting cleanly or properly, and increases overdose deaths. At least with legalization, you get some science based education before you even try it the first time. For most folks, this is way before they start to inject. You can more easily have physicians and/or pharmacists having frank talks with patients about signs of addiction and have science-based plans to help folks wean off of the prescription drugs. You can have injections done by a trained professional, who calculates your dosage. You can make sure it is the strength on the package. You can be referred to a clinic for addiction. Maybe we can even use some of that money we saved on incarceration to let folks rest at home after injury/surgery without losing their house or their job so that we use less pain medication and reduce risk. We can offer medicine-based addiction services as well instead of AA and NA being the standard treatments. And sure, it won't stop everyone, just like cigarettes. But no one currently starts cigarettes thinking they are completely safe - I surely didn't and I started 20 years ago, though I'm down to 3-4 a day now. We can also not use as many of the scare tactics we use today and be honest about the positive effects folks get from this stuff along with the bad. For some, we might have better alternatives (different ways for coping with boredom and stress might help with things like boredom, which is what actually got me to start around 18). And just to state things: I don't know how it is with heroin addiction, but not all addicts for other drugs are alike. Not everyone is an addict for life. Some folks can be alcoholics but then be completely able to drink casually like everyone else, without re-developing a problem. Others cannot, and I think we do a great disservice to people when we lump them together like this.