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But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before

But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since events such as the French revolution. It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me, that some high school kids in the USA believed (this was at the end of the nineties) that European countries do not have their own radio channels ;). Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). The primary advantage of the US is that it is far easier to set up a company, and make it really big. If you make it, you will be rich and wealthy. If you fail, you will hit rock bottom. It is a consequence of the system, wages, taxing, etc.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    "More free time" isn't the claim I was skeptical of.
    - daveoflynn 16y ago
      On the health care front, both the OECD and The Commonwealth Fund give the USA low marks compared to other Western democracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-country_comparisons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-countr... No comment on the 'luxury' claim; that's too subjective for me.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        At the wikipedia page, all they do is compare spending (in $) to life expectancy. This is a terrible comparison, since lots of non-health care factors affect life expectancy. For example, life expectancy within the US is 85 for Asians, 78 for whites and 72 for blacks. Life expectancy in Japan is 83. Hypothesis: ethnicity plays a strong role in determining life expectancy. The fact that Japan is 99.4% Asian while the US is only 5% Asian may drag the US down a bit.
        davidw 16y ago
        Like many things in economics, it's imperfect. If you compare the US with Canada, which has a similar mixed ethnicity, the dollars to life expectancy is still way better in Canada. To save some time, I think the typical libertarian argument is to admit the system in the US actually does stink in terms of costs, and argue that if only we had a truly free market, where people could instruct their ambulance drivers to drive around shopping for the best price/performance ratio for their emergency surgery, then things would be better in the US. This just goes around and around and around, though, doesn't it. I somehow suspect we won't see "health care economics problems solved on niche web site" as tomorrow's headlines. I love to talk about this stuff with people in person, but the bandwidth of a web site is just too low - people write books on these subjects, for pete's sake.
        yummyfajitas 16y ago
  - jules 16y ago
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg/400px-Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yea... I'm surprised that what are generally considered the richest countries are all at the bottom: Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, etc. The difference in working hours between those and the US is huge: 1307 - 1362 hours/year compared to 1777 hours/year.
    - w00pla 16y ago
      It is not as simple as that. There are many countries in which the official work day is less than the real work day. As an example, in Japan no-one leaves before the boss leaves (so it can be longer than the official time). Also, in some countries there are many people working for themselves (such as in small businesses). These people generally work more than the official time. I had a family member work for 14 hours a week (10 hours saturday and sunday) while starting their own business (this went on for two years). Small business owners break the law a lot and work more than the allotted time.
  - confuzatron 16y ago
    My arithmetic may be wrong, but comparing the US figures with those of Germany, Americans work about 2 months more per year (8 hour days, 5 day weeks). Which is a lot.
- danieldk 16y ago
  For example, HDI (Human Development Index, used by the UN) measures three welfare factors (life expectancy, level of education, standard of living). Nine Western European countries rank higher than the US, six Western European countries are ranked lower (including the far more US-oriented UK). Some Southern European countries (Spain, Italy) are almost at US-level. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Complete_list_of_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...
- nanairo 16y ago
  (I am not the original poster, but I thought I'd provide some info). As he pointed out it's difficult to find objective data. But you can check: * Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...): the USA is at position 13. It includes things like life expectancy and education. * Satisfaction with Life index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index):the USA is at position 23. * World Health Organisation ranking of health care: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranking_of_health_care_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranking_of_health_care_...): the USA is at position 37 * Education index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index): the USA is at 19 * Income inequality (Gini coefficient): (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) USA has a score of 47 (out of 100 for maximum inequality). EU has an average of 31 I am sure there's many other indices. And I am also sure that a lot of complains could be thrown on each of these. But I think overall they paint a pretty consistent picture of the USA.
  - rick888 16y ago
    Ignorance is bliss. I would rather have the chance of making it big (or fail) than have the government take most of it away with huge taxes and strict rules that make it really difficult to have a successful business. "It includes things like life expectancy and education." Life expectancy is low because of the vast amount of people that eat crappy food (and don't exercise) in the US. I don't think this is going to change any time soon (unless it's mandated by the government). "Income inequality (Gini coefficient)" This to me just means that in those other countries, the government is re-distributing wealth. People aren't earning more wealth. The government is taking wealth away from people by force and giving it to the rest. The only thing I do agree with is our bad education system system. However, our higher education institutions are some of the best in the world. I also wonder sometimes if the reason our "satisfaction of life" index is low is because of liberal democrats that want us to be more like Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. Would you rather be happier or have less freedoms? I also find it really funny because Sweden, Denmark, and Finland are not only very homogeneous, but very racist. It's very difficult to go against what is considered "normal" (IE: groupthink).
- Confusion 16y ago
  Somewhat of the inverse of more luxury: there is approximately 50% more poverty in the US than in Western European countries: http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/rwss/docs/2010/fullreport.pdf http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/rwss/docs/2010/fullreport.pdf (page 38).

yummyfajitas 16y ago

Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.

arethuza 16y ago
Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  "More free time" isn't the claim I was skeptical of.
  - daveoflynn 16y ago
    On the health care front, both the OECD and The Commonwealth Fund give the USA low marks compared to other Western democracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-country_comparisons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-countr... No comment on the 'luxury' claim; that's too subjective for me.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      At the wikipedia page, all they do is compare spending (in $) to life expectancy. This is a terrible comparison, since lots of non-health care factors affect life expectancy. For example, life expectancy within the US is 85 for Asians, 78 for whites and 72 for blacks. Life expectancy in Japan is 83. Hypothesis: ethnicity plays a strong role in determining life expectancy. The fact that Japan is 99.4% Asian while the US is only 5% Asian may drag the US down a bit.
      - davidw 16y ago
        Like many things in economics, it's imperfect. If you compare the US with Canada, which has a similar mixed ethnicity, the dollars to life expectancy is still way better in Canada. To save some time, I think the typical libertarian argument is to admit the system in the US actually does stink in terms of costs, and argue that if only we had a truly free market, where people could instruct their ambulance drivers to drive around shopping for the best price/performance ratio for their emergency surgery, then things would be better in the US. This just goes around and around and around, though, doesn't it. I somehow suspect we won't see "health care economics problems solved on niche web site" as tomorrow's headlines. I love to talk about this stuff with people in person, but the bandwidth of a web site is just too low - people write books on these subjects, for pete's sake.
        yummyfajitas 16y ago
- jules 16y ago
  http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg/400px-Yearly_working_time_2004.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/64/Yea... I'm surprised that what are generally considered the richest countries are all at the bottom: Netherlands, Sweden, Norway, France, Germany, etc. The difference in working hours between those and the US is huge: 1307 - 1362 hours/year compared to 1777 hours/year.
  - w00pla 16y ago
    It is not as simple as that. There are many countries in which the official work day is less than the real work day. As an example, in Japan no-one leaves before the boss leaves (so it can be longer than the official time). Also, in some countries there are many people working for themselves (such as in small businesses). These people generally work more than the official time. I had a family member work for 14 hours a week (10 hours saturday and sunday) while starting their own business (this went on for two years). Small business owners break the law a lot and work more than the allotted time.
- confuzatron 16y ago
  My arithmetic may be wrong, but comparing the US figures with those of Germany, Americans work about 2 months more per year (8 hour days, 5 day weeks). Which is a lot.
danieldk 16y ago
For example, HDI (Human Development Index, used by the UN) measures three welfare factors (life expectancy, level of education, standard of living). Nine Western European countries rank higher than the US, six Western European countries are ranked lower (including the far more US-oriented UK). Some Southern European countries (Spain, Italy) are almost at US-level. Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index#Complete_list_of_countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...
nanairo 16y ago
(I am not the original poster, but I thought I'd provide some info). As he pointed out it's difficult to find objective data. But you can check: * Human Development Index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Development_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve...): the USA is at position 13. It includes things like life expectancy and education. * Satisfaction with Life index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index):the USA is at position 23. * World Health Organisation ranking of health care: (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranking_of_health_care_systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WHO%27s_ranking_of_health_care_...): the USA is at position 37 * Education index (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_Index): the USA is at 19 * Income inequality (Gini coefficient): (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gini_coefficient) USA has a score of 47 (out of 100 for maximum inequality). EU has an average of 31 I am sure there's many other indices. And I am also sure that a lot of complains could be thrown on each of these. But I think overall they paint a pretty consistent picture of the USA.
- rick888 16y ago
  Ignorance is bliss. I would rather have the chance of making it big (or fail) than have the government take most of it away with huge taxes and strict rules that make it really difficult to have a successful business. "It includes things like life expectancy and education." Life expectancy is low because of the vast amount of people that eat crappy food (and don't exercise) in the US. I don't think this is going to change any time soon (unless it's mandated by the government). "Income inequality (Gini coefficient)" This to me just means that in those other countries, the government is re-distributing wealth. People aren't earning more wealth. The government is taking wealth away from people by force and giving it to the rest. The only thing I do agree with is our bad education system system. However, our higher education institutions are some of the best in the world. I also wonder sometimes if the reason our "satisfaction of life" index is low is because of liberal democrats that want us to be more like Sweden, Denmark, and Finland. Would you rather be happier or have less freedoms? I also find it really funny because Sweden, Denmark, and Finland are not only very homogeneous, but very racist. It's very difficult to go against what is considered "normal" (IE: groupthink).
Confusion 16y ago
Somewhat of the inverse of more luxury: there is approximately 50% more poverty in the US than in Western European countries: http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/rwss/docs/2010/fullreport.pdf http://www.un.org/esa/socdev/rwss/docs/2010/fullreport.pdf (page 38).