11 ms·

Maybe not so much in this specific instance, but Germany's economic and political structure (decentralisation of power and money) was a direct result of the occ

by lenni 16y ago

Maybe not so much in this specific instance, but Germany's economic and political structure (decentralisation of power and money) was a direct result of the occupation by the Allies, who wanted to avoid a strong central government. America was hugely influential in 1945-70.

Hagelin 16y ago
Sure, but labour laws in Germany are closely related to those of other Northern European countries, such as the Scandinavian ones. Like them or not, the labour movement in the form of the unions and the Social Democratic parties fought long and hard for them. To claim that we have the Americans to thank for them is really rather absurd.
danieldk 16y ago
But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since events such as the French revolution. It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me, that some high school kids in the USA believed (this was at the end of the nineties) that European countries do not have their own radio channels ;). Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). The primary advantage of the US is that it is far easier to set up a company, and make it really big. If you make it, you will be rich and wealthy. If you fail, you will hit rock bottom. It is a consequence of the system, wages, taxing, etc.
- yummyfajitas 16y ago
  Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.
  - arethuza 16y ago
    Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]
    - yummyfajitas 16y ago
      "More free time" isn't the claim I was skeptical of.
      - daveoflynn 16y ago
        On the health care front, both the OECD and The Commonwealth Fund give the USA low marks compared to other Western democracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-country_comparisons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-countr... No comment on the 'luxury' claim; that's too subjective for me.
        deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
        yummyfajitas 16y ago
        At the wikipedia page, all they do is compare spending (in $) to life expectancy. This is a terrible comparison, since lots of non-health care factors affect life expectancy. For example, life expectancy within the US is 85 for Asians, 78 for whites and 72 for blacks. Life expectancy in Japan is 83. Hypothesis: ethnicity plays a strong role in determining life expectancy. The fact that Japan is 99.4% Asian while the US is only 5% Asian may drag the US down a bit.
        davidw 16y ago
        Like many things in economics, it's imperfect. If you compare the US with Canada, which has a similar mixed ethnicity, the dollars to life expectancy is still way better in Canada. To save some time, I think the typical libertarian argument is to admit the system in the US actually does stink in terms of costs, and argue that if only we had a truly free market, where people could instruct their ambulance drivers to drive around shopping for the best price/performance ratio for their emergency surgery, then things would be better in the US. This just goes around and around and around, though, doesn't it. I somehow suspect we won't see "health care economics problems solved on niche web site" as tomorrow's headlines. I love to talk about this stuff with people in person, but the bandwidth of a web site is just too low - people write books on these subjects, for pete's sake.
othello 16y ago
Certainly not, the high degree of decentralisation in Germany predates post-WWII by at least a century. [1] Before it was unified in 1870, Germany was made of a number of small independent kingdoms, loosely associated through the Holy Roman Empire until 1806, then through the German Confederation from 1815 until the unification under Prussia's dominance in 1870 [2]. This late unification (in comparison with France or England for example, which already had an embryo of a unified central state as early as the XIIIth century [3]) explains the non-centralised nature of the German state and economy. The Allies had very little to do with it. 1: http://countrystudies.us/germany/151.htm http://countrystudies.us/germany/151.htm 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Modern_period http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Modern_period 3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France#Saint_Louis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France#Saint_Louis

by lenni 16y ago

Hagelin 16y ago

Sure, but labour laws in Germany are closely related to those of other Northern European countries, such as the Scandinavian ones. Like them or not, the labour movement in the form of the unions and the Social Democratic parties fought long and hard for them. To claim that we have the Americans to thank for them is really rather absurd.

danieldk 16y ago

But the Dutch, French, Scandinavian, and others aren't, and the those systems is very comparable to that of Germany. Many of the ideas originate from far before WWII, and had a strong presence (and development) in Europe since events such as the French revolution. It's America-centrism to think that all welfare and modernism is brought to the world by the USA. One typical anecdote a former exchange student told me, that some high school kids in the USA believed (this was at the end of the nineties) that European countries do not have their own radio channels ;). Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). The primary advantage of the US is that it is far easier to set up a company, and make it really big. If you make it, you will be rich and wealthy. If you fail, you will hit rock bottom. It is a consequence of the system, wages, taxing, etc.

yummyfajitas 16y ago
Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.
- arethuza 16y ago
  Of those three areas, only the "more free time" element is easy to compare: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_time From those statistics it does look like the average citizen of the United States probably does work more hours in a year than the average citizen of the EU. [Edited to remove the comment about "but not by a huge factor"]
  - yummyfajitas 16y ago
    "More free time" isn't the claim I was skeptical of.
    - daveoflynn 16y ago
      On the health care front, both the OECD and The Commonwealth Fund give the USA low marks compared to other Western democracies: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-country_comparisons http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Health_care_system#Cross-countr... No comment on the 'luxury' claim; that's too subjective for me.
      - deleted 16y ago
        [deleted]
      - yummyfajitas 16y ago
        At the wikipedia page, all they do is compare spending (in $) to life expectancy. This is a terrible comparison, since lots of non-health care factors affect life expectancy. For example, life expectancy within the US is 85 for Asians, 78 for whites and 72 for blacks. Life expectancy in Japan is 83. Hypothesis: ethnicity plays a strong role in determining life expectancy. The fact that Japan is 99.4% Asian while the US is only 5% Asian may drag the US down a bit.
        davidw 16y ago
        Like many things in economics, it's imperfect. If you compare the US with Canada, which has a similar mixed ethnicity, the dollars to life expectancy is still way better in Canada. To save some time, I think the typical libertarian argument is to admit the system in the US actually does stink in terms of costs, and argue that if only we had a truly free market, where people could instruct their ambulance drivers to drive around shopping for the best price/performance ratio for their emergency surgery, then things would be better in the US. This just goes around and around and around, though, doesn't it. I somehow suspect we won't see "health care economics problems solved on niche web site" as tomorrow's headlines. I love to talk about this stuff with people in person, but the bandwidth of a web site is just too low - people write books on these subjects, for pete's sake.

othello 16y ago

Certainly not, the high degree of decentralisation in Germany predates post-WWII by at least a century. [1] Before it was unified in 1870, Germany was made of a number of small independent kingdoms, loosely associated through the Holy Roman Empire until 1806, then through the German Confederation from 1815 until the unification under Prussia's dominance in 1870 [2]. This late unification (in comparison with France or England for example, which already had an embryo of a unified central state as early as the XIIIth century [3]) explains the non-centralised nature of the German state and economy. The Allies had very little to do with it. 1: http://countrystudies.us/germany/151.htm http://countrystudies.us/germany/151.htm 2: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Modern_period http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Roman_Empire#Modern_period 3: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France#Saint_Louis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_France#Saint_Louis