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A well traveled American ex-colleague of mine moved to Copenhagen but left after 6 months. He said he simply couldn't afford to live there on his (Senior) game

A well traveled American ex-colleague of mine moved to Copenhagen but left after 6 months. He said he simply couldn't afford to live there on his (Senior) game developer salary and theorized that the reason Danes are so happy is that they have such low expectations. I really hope that's not true (I'm pretty sure it isn't) as I find the idea of moving and raising my family there very appealing.

mixmastamyk 9y ago
Devs are not paid as well in Europe, probably a factor.
- jxub 9y ago
  And then his industry was gamedev...
  - stuaxo 9y ago
    Games being one of the most exploitative bits of the industry :/
bjohnson225 9y ago
Developer salaries are significantly lower in the whole of Europe than the US, but they’re still extremely well paid positions that’ll give you way over what an average person earns. Describing it as unaffordable sounds a bit off to me when there are people living comfortably on half what he earned (assuming he wasn’t being massively underpaid). If he wanted a garage full of Tesla’s in his city centre garage, then yeah, it’s unaffordable.
- callumprentice 9y ago
  Yep, understood. I don't know how much he was paid but his definition of not-affordable was not being able to afford more than a 1 bedroom apartment for him, his wife and baby as well as only being able to eat out once a month. Of course, he knew what he was getting paid and it's not difficult these days to get a sense of cost of living for anywhere in world so he must have know what he was getting into.
  - bjohnson225 9y ago
    In that case, I do suspect being a game dev may have led to a lower than average software developer salary. I got back from Copenhagen recently and while food and drink are both insanely expensive, the rent was considerably less than where I live currently, but the salaries were relatively similar.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    Yes, apartment-renting market in cities like Copenhagen, Stockholm or even Berlin is nothing like e.g. NYC. Tenants having much more rights leads to much fewer people willing to let in a tenant.
- allthenews 9y ago
  The fact that Danes are "living comfortably" in light of outrageous taxes and living expenses does nothing to argue against the GP's reasonable claim that perhaps Danes have low expectations. People "live comfortably" on dirt floors in many parts of the world. That doesn't mean such a restriction on financial freedom is appropriate for everyone.
  - kiliantics 9y ago
    yes, the problem here is that upper middle class americans expect to be able to buy and buy whatever they please without ever feeling a pinch
  - Barrin92 9y ago
    there seems to be disparity in the definition of comfort. Your Danish home is going to be smaller, you're not going to drive a giant car, but in return you have excellent access to public transport, years of income guarantee should you lose your job, your kids and you have universal access to healthcare and education regardless where you are on the social strata and so forth. If that's a definition of comfort you like, then Denmark is for you. If you don't, you're better off somewhere else. Rest assured, nobody in Denmark is living in a hut.
    - callumprentice 9y ago
      This really strikes a chord with me. For as long as I have lived in the US I’ve strived for a bigger, fancier house, better car, more toys etc. and now that I’ve gotten to a comfortable level of all of that, I realize I’d give it all up for the benefits you mention. The grass is always greener as they say but it’s awfully tempting.
    - nine_k 9y ago
      Just ask how long are you going to wait until a doctor is available to see you, particularly if it's a specialist. Or how long are you going to wait for a surgery.
      - 9y ago
- lumberjack 9y ago
  Yes, but also some luxuries are way more expensive in Denmark compared to the US. Big houses and luxury cars for example.
  - bergie 9y ago
    As they should be. Nobody needs a big house or a car (of any type). If they still want to have those, why not give something to the society in the process?
badpun 9y ago
> I find the idea of moving and raising my family there very appealing. Are you prepared for 6 months of cold, rain/snow, wind and short days with dim or no sunlight?
- callumprentice 9y ago
  But it's a dry cold :) I'm okay with that - I miss seasons living in Southern CA - but my wife on the other hand, would not enjoy that.
bartedinburgh 9y ago
Being an expat myself, I cannot help but notice that it's often more expensive than being a local, especially in the beginning. Less choice in housing, no family support, being unable to claim certain benefits either because not qualifying or simply being unfamiliar with local laws are some of the reasons causing this. If you need a visa/work permit you can also incur siginificant expenses (both time and money) because of that. I have an above-average income in the UK, and often hear about "people who live on half of what I do" conviniently omitting their reliance on social housing, family help, and state benefits, all of which I lack. While it's possible for a foreigner to acquire those things, it takes a significant amount of time.

mixmastamyk 9y ago

Devs are not paid as well in Europe, probably a factor.

jxub 9y ago
And then his industry was gamedev...
- stuaxo 9y ago
  Games being one of the most exploitative bits of the industry :/

bjohnson225 9y ago

Developer salaries are significantly lower in the whole of Europe than the US, but they’re still extremely well paid positions that’ll give you way over what an average person earns. Describing it as unaffordable sounds a bit off to me when there are people living comfortably on half what he earned (assuming he wasn’t being massively underpaid). If he wanted a garage full of Tesla’s in his city centre garage, then yeah, it’s unaffordable.

callumprentice 9y ago
Yep, understood. I don't know how much he was paid but his definition of not-affordable was not being able to afford more than a 1 bedroom apartment for him, his wife and baby as well as only being able to eat out once a month. Of course, he knew what he was getting paid and it's not difficult these days to get a sense of cost of living for anywhere in world so he must have know what he was getting into.
- bjohnson225 9y ago
  In that case, I do suspect being a game dev may have led to a lower than average software developer salary. I got back from Copenhagen recently and while food and drink are both insanely expensive, the rent was considerably less than where I live currently, but the salaries were relatively similar.
- nine_k 9y ago
  Yes, apartment-renting market in cities like Copenhagen, Stockholm or even Berlin is nothing like e.g. NYC. Tenants having much more rights leads to much fewer people willing to let in a tenant.
allthenews 9y ago
The fact that Danes are "living comfortably" in light of outrageous taxes and living expenses does nothing to argue against the GP's reasonable claim that perhaps Danes have low expectations. People "live comfortably" on dirt floors in many parts of the world. That doesn't mean such a restriction on financial freedom is appropriate for everyone.
- kiliantics 9y ago
  yes, the problem here is that upper middle class americans expect to be able to buy and buy whatever they please without ever feeling a pinch
- Barrin92 9y ago
  there seems to be disparity in the definition of comfort. Your Danish home is going to be smaller, you're not going to drive a giant car, but in return you have excellent access to public transport, years of income guarantee should you lose your job, your kids and you have universal access to healthcare and education regardless where you are on the social strata and so forth. If that's a definition of comfort you like, then Denmark is for you. If you don't, you're better off somewhere else. Rest assured, nobody in Denmark is living in a hut.
  - callumprentice 9y ago
    This really strikes a chord with me. For as long as I have lived in the US I’ve strived for a bigger, fancier house, better car, more toys etc. and now that I’ve gotten to a comfortable level of all of that, I realize I’d give it all up for the benefits you mention. The grass is always greener as they say but it’s awfully tempting.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    Just ask how long are you going to wait until a doctor is available to see you, particularly if it's a specialist. Or how long are you going to wait for a surgery.
    - 9y ago
lumberjack 9y ago
Yes, but also some luxuries are way more expensive in Denmark compared to the US. Big houses and luxury cars for example.
- bergie 9y ago
  As they should be. Nobody needs a big house or a car (of any type). If they still want to have those, why not give something to the society in the process?

badpun 9y ago

> I find the idea of moving and raising my family there very appealing. Are you prepared for 6 months of cold, rain/snow, wind and short days with dim or no sunlight?

callumprentice 9y ago
But it's a dry cold :) I'm okay with that - I miss seasons living in Southern CA - but my wife on the other hand, would not enjoy that.

bartedinburgh 9y ago

Being an expat myself, I cannot help but notice that it's often more expensive than being a local, especially in the beginning. Less choice in housing, no family support, being unable to claim certain benefits either because not qualifying or simply being unfamiliar with local laws are some of the reasons causing this. If you need a visa/work permit you can also incur siginificant expenses (both time and money) because of that. I have an above-average income in the UK, and often hear about "people who live on half of what I do" conviniently omitting their reliance on social housing, family help, and state benefits, all of which I lack. While it's possible for a foreigner to acquire those things, it takes a significant amount of time.