4 ms·

Why? You don't have Gtk+ installed?

by jhasse 9y ago

seba_dos1 9y ago
On some systems where I would like to see Allegro on Wayland running, there's no Gtk+. Also, it adds a very big dependency to distribute with your game if you want to bundle the deps or link statically, so the binary doesn't break in a few years when distributions will stop packaging Gtk+3. All this for no other reason than getting the window decorations drawn on poorly designed desktop environments. (in fact, Allegro already has an extension that makes it use Gtk+ on X11 if you want to use native dialogs and menus, but it's a completely optional extension for a reason, as most games don't need them anyway)
- jhasse 9y ago
  > On some systems where I would like to see Allegro on Wayland running, there's no Gtk+. Can you give an example? > Also, it adds a very big dependency to distribute with your game if you want to bundle the deps or link statically, so the binary doesn't break in a few years when distributions will stop packaging Gtk+3. Since distributions are still shipping Gtk+ 2, I doubt that this will happen "in a few years".
  - seba_dos1 9y ago
    No need for Gtk+ on Plasma Mobile phones, for example. Gtk+2 has some major apps like Gimp that ensure that it's here to stay for a while. Gtk+3's life will sure be shorter, more like Qt4's. Anyway, it doesn't matter. There is no need for Allegro to link with Gtk+ by default, period. Just like mpv, just like SDL, just like many other apps and libraries that don't need a regular toolkit. For some it might be even hard to integrate the glib's mainloop. "You should use Gtk+" in CSD discussion is just a display of arrogance.
    - jhasse 9y ago
      > No need for Gtk+ on Plasma Mobile phones, for example. Plasma Mobile officially supports Gtk+. "Native apps are developed using Qt; it will also support apps written in GTK, Android apps, Ubuntu apps, and many others" https://dot.kde.org/2015/07/25/plasma-mobile-free-mobile-platform https://dot.kde.org/2015/07/25/plasma-mobile-free-mobile-pla... > Gtk+2 has some major apps like Gimp that ensure that it's here to stay for a while. Gtk+3's life will sure be shorter, more like Qt4's. Why? Also: GIMP will move to Gtk+ 3 in a few years. Furthermore Gtk+ 3 has even bigger apps: Firefox and Chrome. > For some it might be even hard to integrate the glib's mainloop. That's a valid argument.
      - seba_dos1 9y ago
        It supports it, because it's just a regular GNU/Linux distro. It's not a good enough argument to bring in an unwanted dependency you might not have installed on your device otherwise, especially on a device with limited space and memory. Why do you need arguments from me anyway? There's no good argument for CSD, and without it there wouldn't be any problem at all ;P
        jhasse 9y ago
        > It's not a good enough argument to bring in an unwanted dependency you might not have installed on your device otherwise, especially on a device with limited space and memory. Would be interesting to know if Plasma Mobile has Gtk+ installed out-of-the-box. Regarding space: Gtk+ isn't that big that this should matter. Also: You don't need decorations on a mobile phone anyway. > There's no good argument for CSD I and many others disagree.
        seba_dos1 9y ago
        > You don't need decorations on a mobile phone anyway. For that point to bring anything meaningful into the conversation it would mean that we'd have to write two separate Wayland backends - one for sensible compositors and platforms where decorations aren't needed, and second one with Gtk+ for CSD. Not going to happen. Also, no, it wouldn't be interesting for this matter at all. The library like Allegro or SDL shouldn't bring such dependencies as a complete toolkit with itself for such a tiny stupid (yet essential) thing like window decoration. Just because you don't care about making your stuff lightweight and well designed, it doesn't mean nobody cares. CSD only makes things complicated, both for app developers, who now have to suddenly have to care not only about drawing decos, but also silly things like inactive borders for shadows; and for users, who then get tons of different decos across windows on a single desktop. If you want to make an app with custom decorations, fine, do it, I'm even glad there are now protocols for that - but don't make it mandatory for everyone just because you're too lazy to support decorations in your compositor. And in this whole discussion, you didn't even bring one argument for it, aside of "many disagree" - only an unwanted solution to artificial problem. The proper solution is "support SSD in your compositor". There is a protocol for that too now.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

Why? You don't have Gtk+ installed?

by jhasse 9y ago

Why? You don't have Gtk+ installed?

On some systems where I would like to see Allegro on Wayland running, there's no Gtk+. Also, it adds a very big dependency to distribute with your game if you want to bundle the deps or link statically, so the binary doesn't break in a few years when distributions will stop packaging Gtk+3. All this for no other reason than getting the window decorations drawn on poorly designed desktop environments. (in fact, Allegro already has an extension that makes it use Gtk+ on X11 if you want to use native dialogs and menus, but it's a completely optional extension for a reason, as most games don't need them anyway)

jhasse 9y ago
> On some systems where I would like to see Allegro on Wayland running, there's no Gtk+. Can you give an example? > Also, it adds a very big dependency to distribute with your game if you want to bundle the deps or link statically, so the binary doesn't break in a few years when distributions will stop packaging Gtk+3. Since distributions are still shipping Gtk+ 2, I doubt that this will happen "in a few years".
- seba_dos1 9y ago
  No need for Gtk+ on Plasma Mobile phones, for example. Gtk+2 has some major apps like Gimp that ensure that it's here to stay for a while. Gtk+3's life will sure be shorter, more like Qt4's. Anyway, it doesn't matter. There is no need for Allegro to link with Gtk+ by default, period. Just like mpv, just like SDL, just like many other apps and libraries that don't need a regular toolkit. For some it might be even hard to integrate the glib's mainloop. "You should use Gtk+" in CSD discussion is just a display of arrogance.
  - jhasse 9y ago
    > No need for Gtk+ on Plasma Mobile phones, for example. Plasma Mobile officially supports Gtk+. "Native apps are developed using Qt; it will also support apps written in GTK, Android apps, Ubuntu apps, and many others" https://dot.kde.org/2015/07/25/plasma-mobile-free-mobile-platform https://dot.kde.org/2015/07/25/plasma-mobile-free-mobile-pla... > Gtk+2 has some major apps like Gimp that ensure that it's here to stay for a while. Gtk+3's life will sure be shorter, more like Qt4's. Why? Also: GIMP will move to Gtk+ 3 in a few years. Furthermore Gtk+ 3 has even bigger apps: Firefox and Chrome. > For some it might be even hard to integrate the glib's mainloop. That's a valid argument.
    - seba_dos1 9y ago
      It supports it, because it's just a regular GNU/Linux distro. It's not a good enough argument to bring in an unwanted dependency you might not have installed on your device otherwise, especially on a device with limited space and memory. Why do you need arguments from me anyway? There's no good argument for CSD, and without it there wouldn't be any problem at all ;P
      - jhasse 9y ago
        > It's not a good enough argument to bring in an unwanted dependency you might not have installed on your device otherwise, especially on a device with limited space and memory. Would be interesting to know if Plasma Mobile has Gtk+ installed out-of-the-box. Regarding space: Gtk+ isn't that big that this should matter. Also: You don't need decorations on a mobile phone anyway. > There's no good argument for CSD I and many others disagree.
        seba_dos1 9y ago
        > You don't need decorations on a mobile phone anyway. For that point to bring anything meaningful into the conversation it would mean that we'd have to write two separate Wayland backends - one for sensible compositors and platforms where decorations aren't needed, and second one with Gtk+ for CSD. Not going to happen. Also, no, it wouldn't be interesting for this matter at all. The library like Allegro or SDL shouldn't bring such dependencies as a complete toolkit with itself for such a tiny stupid (yet essential) thing like window decoration. Just because you don't care about making your stuff lightweight and well designed, it doesn't mean nobody cares. CSD only makes things complicated, both for app developers, who now have to suddenly have to care not only about drawing decos, but also silly things like inactive borders for shadows; and for users, who then get tons of different decos across windows on a single desktop. If you want to make an app with custom decorations, fine, do it, I'm even glad there are now protocols for that - but don't make it mandatory for everyone just because you're too lazy to support decorations in your compositor. And in this whole discussion, you didn't even bring one argument for it, aside of "many disagree" - only an unwanted solution to artificial problem. The proper solution is "support SSD in your compositor". There is a protocol for that too now.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]