8 ms·

Experimental Drug Promises to Kill the Flu Virus in a Day

92 points by mkempe 9y ago

lwhalen 9y ago
I've said it before and I'll say it again: GODS I love living in the future! I don't even care that I don't have a jetpack.
djsumdog 9y ago
Hopefully this is better than Tamiflu. Years ago I was prescribed Tamiflu and man was it weird. Some of my flu symptoms were greatly reduced, yes, but my brain felt like it was always on edge. For people who have done hallucinogens, it was like that edge of being about ready to trip, but never actually seeing visuals. It was not fun. I had trouble sleeping and just wanted the medication to be over with. I looked it up later and discovered it had some interesting brain interactions and side-effects in line with what I experienced. I'm up to date on my shots, but avoid the flu vaccine because ever time I've tried it, it makes my arm hurt (if that's the injection point) for about 3 days. I thought I'd get a tolerance eventually, but never did. It's not as bad as getting the flu, but it's still annoying enough I still avoid it.
- refurb 9y ago
  Interestingly, this drug was in-licensed by Roche, makers of Tamiflu!
- inferiorhuman 9y ago
  > It's not as bad as getting the flu Arm soreness is nowhere near as bad as getting the flu, not even the same ballpark. I get my jab annually and in exchange for those few days of soreness I can't remember the last time I had the flu. No idea what the Tamiflu side effects are like, they sound nasty -- unfortunately I've never had opportunity to take it.
  - cm2012 9y ago
    As someone who hates needles, I would gladly have the flu 10 times a year than get one shot! But I work from home so I rarely get it or have the chance to be contagious.
    - mcpherrinm 9y ago
      You can get the vaccine as a nasal spray if you really hate needles.
      - amaccuish 9y ago
        Doesn't work as well and is now actively discouraged by current guidelines. The immunity induced is so much lower that it's almost not worth it.
        yeukhon 9y ago
        To back it up: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/quadrivalent.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/quadrivalent.htm
    - perl4ever 9y ago
      I hadn't ever gotten anything resembling the flu in many years, but then I started spending every day in an open plan office. After being sick with a high fever a couple times, I started getting flu shots.
    - S_A_P 9y ago
      I had the flu a few times as a kid. I didn’t ever think it was that bad. I had the flu 2 years ago and I wasn’t right for a month. As you get older you immune system weakens and 3-5 days of 102-103 fever is enough to make you think you’re dying.
      - bitL 9y ago
        Maybe it was some stronger mutation? I had flu 2 years ago as well and it knocked me down for a month and then took another 5 months to recover fully, i.e. it kicked me back fitness-wise almost half a year. Still having some minor sleep issues since.
- cam_l 9y ago
  tamiflu was proved to be almost entirely ineffective, and in the case of Australia at least, an expensive scam. https://ama.com.au/ausmed/govt-stands-tamiflu-despite-damning-findings https://ama.com.au/ausmed/govt-stands-tamiflu-despite-damnin...
- dgoldstein0 9y ago
  I think I've only had tamiflu once, and it was when I had swine flu in 2009. I don't recall side effects, but probably anything it did was so much more mild than the 104F fever I had before I started taking it.
- petre 9y ago
  Unfortunately the H3 part of current flu vaccines have about 13% efficiency according to this article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ldquo-the-problem-child-of-seasonal-flu-rdquo-beware-this-winter-rsquo-s-virus/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ldquo-the-problem...
Animats 9y ago
Shionogi has an impressive set of drugs coming along.[1] [1] http://www.shionogi.co.jp/en/company/pmrltj0000000u4v-att/e_kaihatsu.pdf http://www.shionogi.co.jp/en/company/pmrltj0000000u4v-att/e_...
- ekianjo 9y ago
  Not really. Looking at their list: * Japan Phase III: 4 only. Know that these are totally on a different level as Global Phase III's, since you would require a bunch of additional studies with global clinical trials to secure a FDA approval or EU approval abroad. That's very costly and they don't follow the pattern of other companies that conduct Japan Phase III at the same time as global trials. * They have mostly a lot of Phase I and II compounds, which have a low success rate anyway - Maybe one out of 10 will make it. * the indications they target are not "white space" there's already a lot of competition out there, so this is going to make for small revenues for most of them if they ever come out. * You can see that most of the drugs in development do not come from in-house efforts. Shire/Lilly/Roche, basically they rely a lot on their ability to partner with other companies because their own portfolio is really weak. * They are very well known in Japan to be hungry to partner with other companies since they have no blockbuster in sight internally. That's why you find them co-promoting many competitors' drugs with their reps. They are doing that recently with a ADHD drug from Shire (Intuniv) but that's just one example, there are many others (Cymbalta with Lilly, etc...)
Arbiter41 9y ago
extreme misuse and the virus will likely adapt around the drug.
- jimnotgym 9y ago
  Is this even true? I know bacteria adapt to resist anti-biotics, but this is not the same thing at all. IIUC this would be more like humans developing resistance to cyanide.
  - yeukhon 9y ago
    Yes it is true. Influenza and HIV viruses’ mutate very quickly such that one year’s vaccine may not work next year, hence why health professionals advocate flu shot every year. Most vaccinations will last for life time though. CDC and WHO analyze virus samples each year to determine virus mutation and antiviral resistance. Though it is cruical to note that although vaccine is effective, immunity may not developed for a small percentage of population. But please don’t risk your life - I highly suggest go for vaccination. Hong Kong has the worst outbreak this year as the public has low awareness of flu shot, forcing primary school students and below to go on holiday early. Hong Kong’s neighbor, Macu, with high population density, has the highest vaccination participation - has much fewer cases. Lastly, please make sure you are getting quardrivalent flu vaccine (aka four-flu shot) which covers all four types of flu; some years ago flu vaccines only cover three types (it was a “gambling game”). In the US you shouldn’t have to worry, but double check; outside of the Us please triple check... https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm
    - jimnotgym 9y ago
      Bu this article is not about vaccine, it is about an anti-viral! Chalk and cheese
      - yeukhon 9y ago
        > This process works as follows: a person infected with a particular flu virus develops antibody against that virus. As antigenic changes accumulate, the antibodies created against the older viruses no longer recognize the “newer” virus, and the person can get sick again. Genetic changes that result in a virus with different antigenic properties is the main reason why people can get the flu more than one time. This is also why the flu vaccine composition must be reviewed each year, and updated as needed to keep up with evolving viruses.
ggm 9y ago
Tamiflu had a brief but exciting effect on the apparently otherwise stable price of star anise. I kept the box I'd been issued during the h1n1 hong kong scare ( I travel in Asia for work) well past its lifetime. Now it looks like a feeble nineteen fifties failed anti radiation pill, something which might work but nobody knows
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
_0ffh 9y ago
I have a feeling that some people make it sound as if a flu was the end of the world. (Get the shot! Triple check it's a four flu shot! Never go without!) I never vaccinate and sometimes I get a flu. That means I'm mildly uncomfortable for a few days, and that's it. For an otherwise healthy person, the benefit of a flu shot is about as high as the risks. Unless you're unhealthy, or in some other special risk group, flu shots are not necessary. The risk of contracting a super-evil new mega-deadly version of the flu is practically negligible, unless you live in a special risk area.
- cmrdporcupine 9y ago
  4 local (west of Toronto) children have died this winter just this past week from symptoms from the flu, including a healthy 10 year old boy in my daughter's school. In fact 3/4 of the children who've passed away this year had no immune compromising complications.
  - ekianjo 9y ago
    4 from the same strain of flu or were these separate cases?
    - cmrdporcupine 9y ago
      It's not clear. And it's also not clear if this was a strain the (fairly ineffective) vaccine this year would have helped with. But this is just to say -- flu might not be a big deal to some, and I've always treated it that way -- until you see a perfectly health kid die.
      - ekianjo 9y ago
        Yes, I know what you mean. This being said, even the best flu vaccine (depending on each year) is only about 50-60% effective, so the push to "get your vaccine and you'll be safe" is largely moot. Nobody tells such figures to the public.
carc1n0gen 9y ago
Anicdote: in my teens I worked on a turkey egg production farm. Due to this it was mandatory for me to get a flu shot. Every single time I had one, I would vomit a few hours later and have other flu symptoms for a day or two. Ever since leaving that job I haven't had the shot, and I've never had any flu like illness My dad hasn't had the shot in my life time yet. I don't know if he ever had it before I was old enough to remember. He's now 52 and I can only recall two times he ever had the flu
otakucode 9y ago
I don't feel like circumventing the WSJ paywall, so I haven't read the article. But, I do know a bit about the flu virus. I'm annoyed they refer to 'killing' the virus since the virus isn't alive and its activity is not the primary destructive issue. Over-reaction of our immune system is the vast majority of what makes people feel sick and kills them. Cytokine storms cause "flu like symptoms" and it's why so many diseases begin with them. It's not cell damage caused by cells invaded with flu virus exploding into a spray of new viral particles. That does little on its own. For years, though, people have been working on a vaccine or similar which can cause the immune system to target the virus itself rather than its 'shell' which evolves quickly and plays little role in its harm (although it may play a role in its infectivity since we see different levels of spread of different strains who differ almost entirely in the structure of their capsid). That doesn't sound like a 'pill that will kill the flu in a day' though. The only thing I can imagine is that such a pill would be a immunosuppressant that prevents the cytokine storm that makes you feel sick while (I would hope) preserving enough immune function to actually eliminate the viral particles?
mkstowegnv 9y ago
Better non-paywalled article covering a larger set of new drugs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/flu-relief-is-coming-as-successors-to-aging-tamiflu-near-market https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/flu-relie...

92 points by mkempe 9y ago

I've said it before and I'll say it again: GODS I love living in the future! I don't even care that I don't have a jetpack.

djsumdog 9y ago

Hopefully this is better than Tamiflu. Years ago I was prescribed Tamiflu and man was it weird. Some of my flu symptoms were greatly reduced, yes, but my brain felt like it was always on edge. For people who have done hallucinogens, it was like that edge of being about ready to trip, but never actually seeing visuals. It was not fun. I had trouble sleeping and just wanted the medication to be over with. I looked it up later and discovered it had some interesting brain interactions and side-effects in line with what I experienced. I'm up to date on my shots, but avoid the flu vaccine because ever time I've tried it, it makes my arm hurt (if that's the injection point) for about 3 days. I thought I'd get a tolerance eventually, but never did. It's not as bad as getting the flu, but it's still annoying enough I still avoid it.

refurb 9y ago
Interestingly, this drug was in-licensed by Roche, makers of Tamiflu!
inferiorhuman 9y ago
> It's not as bad as getting the flu Arm soreness is nowhere near as bad as getting the flu, not even the same ballpark. I get my jab annually and in exchange for those few days of soreness I can't remember the last time I had the flu. No idea what the Tamiflu side effects are like, they sound nasty -- unfortunately I've never had opportunity to take it.
- cm2012 9y ago
  As someone who hates needles, I would gladly have the flu 10 times a year than get one shot! But I work from home so I rarely get it or have the chance to be contagious.
  - mcpherrinm 9y ago
    You can get the vaccine as a nasal spray if you really hate needles.
    - amaccuish 9y ago
      Doesn't work as well and is now actively discouraged by current guidelines. The immunity induced is so much lower that it's almost not worth it.
      - yeukhon 9y ago
        To back it up: https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/quadrivalent.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/protect/vaccine/quadrivalent.htm
  - perl4ever 9y ago
    I hadn't ever gotten anything resembling the flu in many years, but then I started spending every day in an open plan office. After being sick with a high fever a couple times, I started getting flu shots.
  - S_A_P 9y ago
    I had the flu a few times as a kid. I didn’t ever think it was that bad. I had the flu 2 years ago and I wasn’t right for a month. As you get older you immune system weakens and 3-5 days of 102-103 fever is enough to make you think you’re dying.
    - bitL 9y ago
      Maybe it was some stronger mutation? I had flu 2 years ago as well and it knocked me down for a month and then took another 5 months to recover fully, i.e. it kicked me back fitness-wise almost half a year. Still having some minor sleep issues since.
cam_l 9y ago
tamiflu was proved to be almost entirely ineffective, and in the case of Australia at least, an expensive scam. https://ama.com.au/ausmed/govt-stands-tamiflu-despite-damning-findings https://ama.com.au/ausmed/govt-stands-tamiflu-despite-damnin...
dgoldstein0 9y ago
I think I've only had tamiflu once, and it was when I had swine flu in 2009. I don't recall side effects, but probably anything it did was so much more mild than the 104F fever I had before I started taking it.
petre 9y ago
Unfortunately the H3 part of current flu vaccines have about 13% efficiency according to this article: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ldquo-the-problem-child-of-seasonal-flu-rdquo-beware-this-winter-rsquo-s-virus/ https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/ldquo-the-problem...

Animats 9y ago

Shionogi has an impressive set of drugs coming along.[1] [1] http://www.shionogi.co.jp/en/company/pmrltj0000000u4v-att/e_kaihatsu.pdf http://www.shionogi.co.jp/en/company/pmrltj0000000u4v-att/e_...

ekianjo 9y ago
Not really. Looking at their list: * Japan Phase III: 4 only. Know that these are totally on a different level as Global Phase III's, since you would require a bunch of additional studies with global clinical trials to secure a FDA approval or EU approval abroad. That's very costly and they don't follow the pattern of other companies that conduct Japan Phase III at the same time as global trials. * They have mostly a lot of Phase I and II compounds, which have a low success rate anyway - Maybe one out of 10 will make it. * the indications they target are not "white space" there's already a lot of competition out there, so this is going to make for small revenues for most of them if they ever come out. * You can see that most of the drugs in development do not come from in-house efforts. Shire/Lilly/Roche, basically they rely a lot on their ability to partner with other companies because their own portfolio is really weak. * They are very well known in Japan to be hungry to partner with other companies since they have no blockbuster in sight internally. That's why you find them co-promoting many competitors' drugs with their reps. They are doing that recently with a ADHD drug from Shire (Intuniv) but that's just one example, there are many others (Cymbalta with Lilly, etc...)

Arbiter41 9y ago

extreme misuse and the virus will likely adapt around the drug.

jimnotgym 9y ago
Is this even true? I know bacteria adapt to resist anti-biotics, but this is not the same thing at all. IIUC this would be more like humans developing resistance to cyanide.
- yeukhon 9y ago
  Yes it is true. Influenza and HIV viruses’ mutate very quickly such that one year’s vaccine may not work next year, hence why health professionals advocate flu shot every year. Most vaccinations will last for life time though. CDC and WHO analyze virus samples each year to determine virus mutation and antiviral resistance. Though it is cruical to note that although vaccine is effective, immunity may not developed for a small percentage of population. But please don’t risk your life - I highly suggest go for vaccination. Hong Kong has the worst outbreak this year as the public has low awareness of flu shot, forcing primary school students and below to go on holiday early. Hong Kong’s neighbor, Macu, with high population density, has the highest vaccination participation - has much fewer cases. Lastly, please make sure you are getting quardrivalent flu vaccine (aka four-flu shot) which covers all four types of flu; some years ago flu vaccines only cover three types (it was a “gambling game”). In the US you shouldn’t have to worry, but double check; outside of the Us please triple check... https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/viruses/change.htm
  - jimnotgym 9y ago
    Bu this article is not about vaccine, it is about an anti-viral! Chalk and cheese
    - yeukhon 9y ago
      > This process works as follows: a person infected with a particular flu virus develops antibody against that virus. As antigenic changes accumulate, the antibodies created against the older viruses no longer recognize the “newer” virus, and the person can get sick again. Genetic changes that result in a virus with different antigenic properties is the main reason why people can get the flu more than one time. This is also why the flu vaccine composition must be reviewed each year, and updated as needed to keep up with evolving viruses.

ggm 9y ago

Tamiflu had a brief but exciting effect on the apparently otherwise stable price of star anise. I kept the box I'd been issued during the h1n1 hong kong scare ( I travel in Asia for work) well past its lifetime. Now it looks like a feeble nineteen fifties failed anti radiation pill, something which might work but nobody knows

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

_0ffh 9y ago

I have a feeling that some people make it sound as if a flu was the end of the world. (Get the shot! Triple check it's a four flu shot! Never go without!) I never vaccinate and sometimes I get a flu. That means I'm mildly uncomfortable for a few days, and that's it. For an otherwise healthy person, the benefit of a flu shot is about as high as the risks. Unless you're unhealthy, or in some other special risk group, flu shots are not necessary. The risk of contracting a super-evil new mega-deadly version of the flu is practically negligible, unless you live in a special risk area.

cmrdporcupine 9y ago
4 local (west of Toronto) children have died this winter just this past week from symptoms from the flu, including a healthy 10 year old boy in my daughter's school. In fact 3/4 of the children who've passed away this year had no immune compromising complications.
- ekianjo 9y ago
  4 from the same strain of flu or were these separate cases?
  - cmrdporcupine 9y ago
    It's not clear. And it's also not clear if this was a strain the (fairly ineffective) vaccine this year would have helped with. But this is just to say -- flu might not be a big deal to some, and I've always treated it that way -- until you see a perfectly health kid die.
    - ekianjo 9y ago
      Yes, I know what you mean. This being said, even the best flu vaccine (depending on each year) is only about 50-60% effective, so the push to "get your vaccine and you'll be safe" is largely moot. Nobody tells such figures to the public.

carc1n0gen 9y ago

Anicdote: in my teens I worked on a turkey egg production farm. Due to this it was mandatory for me to get a flu shot. Every single time I had one, I would vomit a few hours later and have other flu symptoms for a day or two. Ever since leaving that job I haven't had the shot, and I've never had any flu like illness My dad hasn't had the shot in my life time yet. I don't know if he ever had it before I was old enough to remember. He's now 52 and I can only recall two times he ever had the flu

otakucode 9y ago

I don't feel like circumventing the WSJ paywall, so I haven't read the article. But, I do know a bit about the flu virus. I'm annoyed they refer to 'killing' the virus since the virus isn't alive and its activity is not the primary destructive issue. Over-reaction of our immune system is the vast majority of what makes people feel sick and kills them. Cytokine storms cause "flu like symptoms" and it's why so many diseases begin with them. It's not cell damage caused by cells invaded with flu virus exploding into a spray of new viral particles. That does little on its own. For years, though, people have been working on a vaccine or similar which can cause the immune system to target the virus itself rather than its 'shell' which evolves quickly and plays little role in its harm (although it may play a role in its infectivity since we see different levels of spread of different strains who differ almost entirely in the structure of their capsid). That doesn't sound like a 'pill that will kill the flu in a day' though. The only thing I can imagine is that such a pill would be a immunosuppressant that prevents the cytokine storm that makes you feel sick while (I would hope) preserving enough immune function to actually eliminate the viral particles?

mkstowegnv 9y ago

Better non-paywalled article covering a larger set of new drugs https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/flu-relief-is-coming-as-successors-to-aging-tamiflu-near-market https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-08/flu-relie...