6 ms·

For some reason HN has been mimetically pulled into the seneca philosophy. Just so you guys know, there are many many many other philosophies and really great b

by tw1010 9y ago

For some reason HN has been mimetically pulled into the seneca philosophy. Just so you guys know, there are many many many other philosophies and really great books about ways to look at life and how to live it than just stoicism. Don't let something as important as a life philosophy be steered by social media influencer culture. Take some time to read from sources outside your filter bubble. Your 70 year old self will thank you for it.

netc 9y ago
Can you suggest few readings?
- HiroshiSan 9y ago
  The Bible edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life.
  - AlexCoventry 9y ago
    I think a big factor is that many people here are surrounded by people who are steeped in Biblical culture, yet living objectively terrible lives. The dominant religious narrative of any culture is inevitably corrupted by temporal pressures. Also, while I agree there are many valuable lessons to be learned from the Bible, the New Testament is not a book for people who strive for wealth, and HN attracts strivers. Not to say you can't be a Christian and strive for wealth, but the striving is going to come from some other part of your life, and it's going to force you to compartmentalize Christian values to some extent. Seneca, on the other hand, was unapologetically wealthy, and his philosophy was consistent with that.
  - waynecochran 9y ago
    A particularly important read concerning the meaning of life is the book of Ecclesiastes. It tells of Solomon’s great experiment of finding meaning in knowledge, pleasure, wealth, accomplishment, etc.. I am often bewildered by those who pour a great deal of energy in planning for retirement and ignoring the fact that they will soon thereafter be pushing up daisies. Death awaits us all.
    - pmoriarty 9y ago
      The Book of Job might be one that the Stoics could appreciate, as in it Job is robbed of every worldly good, his health, his friends, and his family. Though they'd probably point out that if only Job had practiced Stoicism he'd be able to meet all of these privations with indifference.
      - damontal 9y ago
        If you like Job you should seek out the play J.B. by Archibald MacLeish. His take on the story is that Job in the end forgives God, making him superior in some way to the God he loves so much, which is a view of the story you don't often hear.
    - replicatorblog 9y ago
      I pour a lot into retirement because I don't want my final days to be a time of financial hardship or to be a burden on my children. Today, I can easily move around, feed/wash myself, and but that won't be true forever. Putting money away for later gives me some measure of confidence I'll be able to pay someone to help me when the time comes.
      - freeloop3 9y ago
        Why not kill yourself when you get too old to wash/feed yourself? I'm being serious. I've asked myself that many times and can't find a good reason why not.
        maroonblazer 9y ago
        It's not even about washing/feeding yourself. I simply don't want to have to work all my life. I'd like to spend my days reading, watching movies, traveling, eating out, etc. To your question though, I find that as I get older life is increasingly more interesting. I suspect that will be the case regardless of whether I'm hobbled by my body. Also, if I have grandchildren I can imagine wanting to hang around to see them grow up.
        9y ago
  - arstin 9y ago
    Yeah the Bible is typically overlooked these days. Even most Christians probably don't read it. And many of the type who discovered Seneca or Dogen through a self-help blog probably take pride in how intelligent and "rational" they are (for flowing along with the dominant current of our culture ha) in rejecting Christianity. But the Bible is literally just a library of different writings, the whole point of which is to give a complete picture of life, to furnish the imagination with stories and characters and lessons. Proverbs is a place to start I guess, though I'm hardly the person to ask. I remember liking the Gospel of Mark as a kid?
  - ianai 9y ago
    In the current era, I think the bible has gotten enough press. Far fewer people have read Seneca than the bible - and the bible permeates US culture. It's like telling someone learning about IT who's only ever worked with Windows to keep right on developing their Windows background. It's not awful advice, and it's not comment worthy.
    - geofft 9y ago
      But there's so much about Windows that the average end user doesn't know - just like there's so much about the Bible that the average American doesn't know. If you want to learn about operating systems, NT is genuinely worth taking a deep look at, for both the successful and unsuccessful things about it, and "I've been using MS Word my whole life" isn't a reason not to look at NT. And even if you just want to work at the operational level, running a Windows environment with AD / Group Policy / etc. is so different from maintaining your personal Windows laptop
      - ianai 9y ago
        If all you’ve ever done is maintain a personal Windows install for yourself you’re not a Windows IT professional.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - billfruit 9y ago
    The Essays of Montaigne. While it is a massive time, he wrote in so much detail into his own thought process, we are given a peek into his mind. He also digests thousands of aphorisms, maxims, parables and quotes from the classics and the works from antiquity. I have heard people referring to it as a sort of a secular Bible. I recommend the translation by M A Screech.
  - alsetmusic 9y ago
    > The Bible > edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? > The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life. By itself, it wasn’t a very compelling comment. You made no effort to support your position. Given that the Christian bible is considered to be a religious text first and philosophy second (if at all), you should have made a case for why it was relevant in this context.
  - danjc 9y ago
    The bible reveals that the basic problem humanity has is not lack of a robust life philosophy but rather that we're inherently sinful and thus deserving of death (physical and eternal). That's an offensive message. It then explains that the remedy to the judgement we deserve is believing in Jesus Christ, who by bearing that judgement, causes our sin to be imputed to himself and his righteousness to be imputed to us. Accepting this requires us to admit we are totally helpless and at God's mercy. That's an even more offensive message.
- lemonberry 9y ago
  I like Nietszche, Emerson (especially 'Self-Reliance'), Walt Whitman and the Tao Te Ching. For fiction Zorba the Greek and Dune are two of my favorites.
  - ianai 9y ago
    I like Emerson's Circles essay. It's helped me maintain some humility many times. Kant's CI for ethics. Tao Te Ching for perspective and focus. Nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg for confrontation and interpersonal communication. The concept of NVC and, through its negation, violent communication underscores so much of what's currently going on in the world.
- rexpop 9y ago
  - Tao Te Ching, especially LeGuin's translation - Finite & Infinite Games (J.P. Carse) - Man's Search for Meaning
- bernardino 9y ago
  Lately, this has been my go-to recommendation: Vaster Than Sky, Greater Than Space: What You Are Before You Became by Mooji.
- dnlbyl 9y ago
  The Consolations of Philosophy by Alain De Botton is a very approachable introduction to Socrates, Epicurus, Seneca, Montaigne, Shopenhauer, and Nietzsche and the practical takeaways from their teachings.
- michaelsbradley 9y ago
  Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues by Alphonsus Rodriguez[1], translated by Josephy Rickaby[2] https://archive.org/stream/PPCV-Manresa#page/n3/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/PPCV-Manresa#page/n3/mode/2up [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Rodriguez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Rodriguez [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rickaby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rickaby
- whistlerbrk 9y ago
  All bhuddist philosophy takes the understanding of your impending death, and the background fear of it, as absolutely critical to determining meaning in your life. I can not highly recommend enough "The Meaning of Life : Perspectives from the World's Great Intellectual Traditions". It's one of The Great Courses and I found, extremely easy to listen to. The topics covered range from the Bhagavad Gita, to the Book of Job, to Stoicism, to Daoism, Confucianism, Bhuddism, and all the way into modernity (Hume, Mills, Kant, Tolstoy) and post-modernity (Nietzsche). A pervasive theme of ALL cultures with a philosophical tradition is the necessity of living one's life with the moment to moment realization of one's death.
Red_Tarsius 9y ago
People read Seneca long before the American self-help industry got its hands on Stoic principles. His huge corpus (letters and essays) is surprisingly easy to read and inspired many thinkers after him. It's a gateway to look further into ancient philosophies. Reading his letters at school also allowed us to glimpse the life and struggles of a wealthy Roman citizen.
dtornabene 9y ago
I was thinking about this today even before this came up! It seems a strange philosophy to adopt for individuals who "disrupt" or who can literally control their digital environments, etc. Fwiw I think people engaging with philosophy is probably a net good.
- IntronExon 9y ago
  If you think about someone in a job they hate, ruled by managers and treated as a cog in a machine that makes money for others, it starts to make sense. If you feel helpless in the face of life, then just gritting your teeth and bearing it probably seems appealing. If what you really fear is risk and change in your employment and life, then a philosophy which teaches you to accept the inevitable may attract you. In short, Dilbert probably reads Seneca.
  - elcapitan 9y ago
    I doubt that. Stoicism is not about the inevitability of what is now, but about the inevitability of what may happen, and about being humble with the fact that the great war you may be winning now could be lost tomorrow, despite all your greatness. It's the philosophy of leaders of their time, as Marcus Aurelius was, Seneca was, or people who had overcome great obstacles (like Epictetus, who was born a slave). Risk and change were their daily bread, and so their philosophy was very practical in dealing with that.
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charlysl 9y ago
Spot on. I strongly recommend Russell's History of Western Philosophy to get a wider perspective and understanding of how and why thought systems evolved, much more insightful than knowing any particular philosophy in a vacuum, and to understand stoicisms place and how it primed the West for Christianity. It is often claimed that the ancient greeks experimented with every possible philosophical system, of which stoicism is one of many. To me this ultimate freedom of thought, this willingness to challenge and explore ideas without fear of tradition and authority, and to create new ones and following them wherever they may lead, this open mindedness is one of their great contributions. Of all these, Epicureism is possibly the one that has ultimately triumphed, via Lucrecius' De Rerum Natura. This point of view is wonderfully explained in The Swerve: How the World Became Modern. Absolutely fascinating how by starting by speculating that everyting that exists has an exclusively material substance and is made of atoms (he wasn't the first to speculate this though), Epicureus, via a long chain of reasoning, deducted an ethic that is essentially modern (albeit often misunderstood due to its suppression and distorsion by the christian tradition). 2300 years ago. I wonder if A Man in Full novel by Tom Wolfe is a precursor of this stoicism trend.

by tw1010 9y ago

netc 9y ago

Can you suggest few readings?

HiroshiSan 9y ago
The Bible edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life.
- AlexCoventry 9y ago
  I think a big factor is that many people here are surrounded by people who are steeped in Biblical culture, yet living objectively terrible lives. The dominant religious narrative of any culture is inevitably corrupted by temporal pressures. Also, while I agree there are many valuable lessons to be learned from the Bible, the New Testament is not a book for people who strive for wealth, and HN attracts strivers. Not to say you can't be a Christian and strive for wealth, but the striving is going to come from some other part of your life, and it's going to force you to compartmentalize Christian values to some extent. Seneca, on the other hand, was unapologetically wealthy, and his philosophy was consistent with that.
- waynecochran 9y ago
  A particularly important read concerning the meaning of life is the book of Ecclesiastes. It tells of Solomon’s great experiment of finding meaning in knowledge, pleasure, wealth, accomplishment, etc.. I am often bewildered by those who pour a great deal of energy in planning for retirement and ignoring the fact that they will soon thereafter be pushing up daisies. Death awaits us all.
  - pmoriarty 9y ago
    The Book of Job might be one that the Stoics could appreciate, as in it Job is robbed of every worldly good, his health, his friends, and his family. Though they'd probably point out that if only Job had practiced Stoicism he'd be able to meet all of these privations with indifference.
    - damontal 9y ago
      If you like Job you should seek out the play J.B. by Archibald MacLeish. His take on the story is that Job in the end forgives God, making him superior in some way to the God he loves so much, which is a view of the story you don't often hear.
  - replicatorblog 9y ago
    I pour a lot into retirement because I don't want my final days to be a time of financial hardship or to be a burden on my children. Today, I can easily move around, feed/wash myself, and but that won't be true forever. Putting money away for later gives me some measure of confidence I'll be able to pay someone to help me when the time comes.
    - freeloop3 9y ago
      Why not kill yourself when you get too old to wash/feed yourself? I'm being serious. I've asked myself that many times and can't find a good reason why not.
      - maroonblazer 9y ago
        It's not even about washing/feeding yourself. I simply don't want to have to work all my life. I'd like to spend my days reading, watching movies, traveling, eating out, etc. To your question though, I find that as I get older life is increasingly more interesting. I suspect that will be the case regardless of whether I'm hobbled by my body. Also, if I have grandchildren I can imagine wanting to hang around to see them grow up.
      - 9y ago
- arstin 9y ago
  Yeah the Bible is typically overlooked these days. Even most Christians probably don't read it. And many of the type who discovered Seneca or Dogen through a self-help blog probably take pride in how intelligent and "rational" they are (for flowing along with the dominant current of our culture ha) in rejecting Christianity. But the Bible is literally just a library of different writings, the whole point of which is to give a complete picture of life, to furnish the imagination with stories and characters and lessons. Proverbs is a place to start I guess, though I'm hardly the person to ask. I remember liking the Gospel of Mark as a kid?
- ianai 9y ago
  In the current era, I think the bible has gotten enough press. Far fewer people have read Seneca than the bible - and the bible permeates US culture. It's like telling someone learning about IT who's only ever worked with Windows to keep right on developing their Windows background. It's not awful advice, and it's not comment worthy.
  - geofft 9y ago
    But there's so much about Windows that the average end user doesn't know - just like there's so much about the Bible that the average American doesn't know. If you want to learn about operating systems, NT is genuinely worth taking a deep look at, for both the successful and unsuccessful things about it, and "I've been using MS Word my whole life" isn't a reason not to look at NT. And even if you just want to work at the operational level, running a Windows environment with AD / Group Policy / etc. is so different from maintaining your personal Windows laptop
    - ianai 9y ago
      If all you’ve ever done is maintain a personal Windows install for yourself you’re not a Windows IT professional.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- billfruit 9y ago
  The Essays of Montaigne. While it is a massive time, he wrote in so much detail into his own thought process, we are given a peek into his mind. He also digests thousands of aphorisms, maxims, parables and quotes from the classics and the works from antiquity. I have heard people referring to it as a sort of a secular Bible. I recommend the translation by M A Screech.
- alsetmusic 9y ago
  > The Bible > edit: For those of you down voting me for whatever reason, can you at least contribute to the discussion and explain how my answer was a poor one? > The bible is one of the greatest stories ever told containing a myriad of different ways at looking at life. By itself, it wasn’t a very compelling comment. You made no effort to support your position. Given that the Christian bible is considered to be a religious text first and philosophy second (if at all), you should have made a case for why it was relevant in this context.
- danjc 9y ago
  The bible reveals that the basic problem humanity has is not lack of a robust life philosophy but rather that we're inherently sinful and thus deserving of death (physical and eternal). That's an offensive message. It then explains that the remedy to the judgement we deserve is believing in Jesus Christ, who by bearing that judgement, causes our sin to be imputed to himself and his righteousness to be imputed to us. Accepting this requires us to admit we are totally helpless and at God's mercy. That's an even more offensive message.
lemonberry 9y ago
I like Nietszche, Emerson (especially 'Self-Reliance'), Walt Whitman and the Tao Te Ching. For fiction Zorba the Greek and Dune are two of my favorites.
- ianai 9y ago
  I like Emerson's Circles essay. It's helped me maintain some humility many times. Kant's CI for ethics. Tao Te Ching for perspective and focus. Nonviolent communication by Marshall Rosenberg for confrontation and interpersonal communication. The concept of NVC and, through its negation, violent communication underscores so much of what's currently going on in the world.
rexpop 9y ago
- Tao Te Ching, especially LeGuin's translation - Finite & Infinite Games (J.P. Carse) - Man's Search for Meaning
bernardino 9y ago
Lately, this has been my go-to recommendation: Vaster Than Sky, Greater Than Space: What You Are Before You Became by Mooji.
dnlbyl 9y ago
The Consolations of Philosophy by Alain De Botton is a very approachable introduction to Socrates, Epicurus, Seneca, Montaigne, Shopenhauer, and Nietzsche and the practical takeaways from their teachings.
michaelsbradley 9y ago
Practice of Perfection and Christian Virtues by Alphonsus Rodriguez[1], translated by Josephy Rickaby[2] https://archive.org/stream/PPCV-Manresa#page/n3/mode/2up https://archive.org/stream/PPCV-Manresa#page/n3/mode/2up [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Rodriguez https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alonso_Rodriguez [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rickaby https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Rickaby
whistlerbrk 9y ago
All bhuddist philosophy takes the understanding of your impending death, and the background fear of it, as absolutely critical to determining meaning in your life. I can not highly recommend enough "The Meaning of Life : Perspectives from the World's Great Intellectual Traditions". It's one of The Great Courses and I found, extremely easy to listen to. The topics covered range from the Bhagavad Gita, to the Book of Job, to Stoicism, to Daoism, Confucianism, Bhuddism, and all the way into modernity (Hume, Mills, Kant, Tolstoy) and post-modernity (Nietzsche). A pervasive theme of ALL cultures with a philosophical tradition is the necessity of living one's life with the moment to moment realization of one's death.

Red_Tarsius 9y ago

People read Seneca long before the American self-help industry got its hands on Stoic principles. His huge corpus (letters and essays) is surprisingly easy to read and inspired many thinkers after him. It's a gateway to look further into ancient philosophies. Reading his letters at school also allowed us to glimpse the life and struggles of a wealthy Roman citizen.

dtornabene 9y ago

I was thinking about this today even before this came up! It seems a strange philosophy to adopt for individuals who "disrupt" or who can literally control their digital environments, etc. Fwiw I think people engaging with philosophy is probably a net good.

IntronExon 9y ago
If you think about someone in a job they hate, ruled by managers and treated as a cog in a machine that makes money for others, it starts to make sense. If you feel helpless in the face of life, then just gritting your teeth and bearing it probably seems appealing. If what you really fear is risk and change in your employment and life, then a philosophy which teaches you to accept the inevitable may attract you. In short, Dilbert probably reads Seneca.
- elcapitan 9y ago
  I doubt that. Stoicism is not about the inevitability of what is now, but about the inevitability of what may happen, and about being humble with the fact that the great war you may be winning now could be lost tomorrow, despite all your greatness. It's the philosophy of leaders of their time, as Marcus Aurelius was, Seneca was, or people who had overcome great obstacles (like Epictetus, who was born a slave). Risk and change were their daily bread, and so their philosophy was very practical in dealing with that.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

charlysl 9y ago

Spot on. I strongly recommend Russell's History of Western Philosophy to get a wider perspective and understanding of how and why thought systems evolved, much more insightful than knowing any particular philosophy in a vacuum, and to understand stoicisms place and how it primed the West for Christianity. It is often claimed that the ancient greeks experimented with every possible philosophical system, of which stoicism is one of many. To me this ultimate freedom of thought, this willingness to challenge and explore ideas without fear of tradition and authority, and to create new ones and following them wherever they may lead, this open mindedness is one of their great contributions. Of all these, Epicureism is possibly the one that has ultimately triumphed, via Lucrecius' De Rerum Natura. This point of view is wonderfully explained in The Swerve: How the World Became Modern. Absolutely fascinating how by starting by speculating that everyting that exists has an exclusively material substance and is made of atoms (he wasn't the first to speculate this though), Epicureus, via a long chain of reasoning, deducted an ethic that is essentially modern (albeit often misunderstood due to its suppression and distorsion by the christian tradition). 2300 years ago. I wonder if A Man in Full novel by Tom Wolfe is a precursor of this stoicism trend.