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> My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it” Absurdly subjective. If you can neither qualify nor quantify "it" you shouldn't start levying

> My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it” Absurdly subjective. If you can neither qualify nor quantify "it" you shouldn't start levying it as some standard of quality.

robotresearcher 9y ago
Nonsense. The reason we have the concept of ‘it’ and ‘je ne sais qois’ is because we (many of us) find that a useful concept. Subjective assessment of art is absolutely allowed without rigorous metrics. The differences in timing, attack, etc from a good player and a merely competent player are objectively measurable, but a non expert can hear the difference and form an option without understanding what they are using to discriminate. Edit: fixed French spelling.
- torstenvl 9y ago
  L'orthographe français contient du... je ne sais quoi.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    Pardon. Veuillez excuser mon erreur.
    - torstenvl 9y ago
      Il n'y a rien à excuser, Monsieur. :)
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        Except I failed in my attempt to fix it and now I’m embarrassed :( !
- doktrin 9y ago
  > ‘je ne sais cois’ if you're going to pompously bandy a term about, you should at least spell it correctly
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    I can’t avoid a subjective assessment of these posts, despite the objectively impeccable spelling.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      the spelling of your posts is objectively not impeccable
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- thatcat 9y ago
  Exactly, the English equivalent would be 'ineffable', as in ineffible beauty; which describes a quality of an aestetic that is beyond words and relates to how the sum of techniques used together is greater than the individual techniques employed by themselves in the context of art.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > the English equivalent would be 'ineffable' which describes a quality that is beyond words also known as "inherently subjective" just because you deem something to be inexpressible doesn't mean it actually is.
    - thatcat 9y ago
      Language has inherent limits, it is an objective subset of subjective concepts that allows us to communicate. Thinking somthing is beautiful and having others think similarly doesn't inherently mean that the beauty can be communicated linguistically. Otherwise, why have music, visual art, etc? If language was capable of describing all concepts you could just describe these concepts linguistically and that would be enough to feel the same beauty about the concept.
fwsgonzo 9y ago
Not at all, just listen to some of the musical channels on Twitch. Channels like pianoimproman (old man who is crazy good) and kylelandrypiano (young) are just leagues above the rest, yet there is no shortage of live musicians. I suggest watching just to see how pianoimproman gets a request for a song he has never heard, then plays his own version of that song based on only hearing a few seconds. A sample from the young man: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655
- doktrin 9y ago
  It is pleasurable from an auditory perspective but i discern no difference in quality between the linked content and other more generic recordings of the same piece. Again : just because "you" find that something speaks to "you" is in no way an indication that it possesses some inherent quality. More likely, it's an expression of your personal biases and/or group psychosis.
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    Perhaps, but they do get paid considerably by people to play like this regularly, live. So "you" here must be the viewership then.
- freyir 9y ago
  You have no idea how many hours these people practice, when they began playing, their practice methods, and so on. And you’re comparing them to other random people on Twitch, who might be casual players just noodling around. So what are we supposed to deduce from this?
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    My point was only about how there are great minds out there who clearly are not like the rest, whether it be music or ability to perform in another professional capacity. There are Dota2 players who have played the game all their lives, yet not achieved "much" compared to young kids who explode into the scene only to remain in a higher tier. This https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ shows that in that particular game only the 99.95 percentile is pro-level. I've personally played an instrument since I was 7 and while I was playing every day until I was 18 that didn't automatically make me able to produce good music that gives people goosebumps. But I've met plenty who can, without much practice. In fact their earlier music had an unrefined thing about it that made it unique. They were just good, I guess. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense.
Spooky23 9y ago
Its a good point, it just can’t be measured by lay people. Anecdotally, I always use my sister and I as examples. We’re 18 months apart, similar IQ, same upbringing, etc. you can hand her any music producing instrument and she’ll be making music in a few minutes. I am the opposite, barely able to play Mary had a little lamb. I’m pretty sure you can use tools like Myers Briggs to correlate personality traits to talents in certain areas. Some people are attracted to a career in accounting, which sounds like a vision of hell on earth to others. Ditto for music or other arts.

> My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it” Absurdly subjective. If you can neither qualify nor quantify "it" you shouldn't start levying it as some standard of quality.

robotresearcher 9y ago

Nonsense. The reason we have the concept of ‘it’ and ‘je ne sais qois’ is because we (many of us) find that a useful concept. Subjective assessment of art is absolutely allowed without rigorous metrics. The differences in timing, attack, etc from a good player and a merely competent player are objectively measurable, but a non expert can hear the difference and form an option without understanding what they are using to discriminate. Edit: fixed French spelling.

torstenvl 9y ago
L'orthographe français contient du... je ne sais quoi.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Pardon. Veuillez excuser mon erreur.
  - torstenvl 9y ago
    Il n'y a rien à excuser, Monsieur. :)
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      Except I failed in my attempt to fix it and now I’m embarrassed :( !
doktrin 9y ago
> ‘je ne sais cois’ if you're going to pompously bandy a term about, you should at least spell it correctly
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  I can’t avoid a subjective assessment of these posts, despite the objectively impeccable spelling.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    the spelling of your posts is objectively not impeccable
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
thatcat 9y ago
Exactly, the English equivalent would be 'ineffable', as in ineffible beauty; which describes a quality of an aestetic that is beyond words and relates to how the sum of techniques used together is greater than the individual techniques employed by themselves in the context of art.
- doktrin 9y ago
  > the English equivalent would be 'ineffable' which describes a quality that is beyond words also known as "inherently subjective" just because you deem something to be inexpressible doesn't mean it actually is.
  - thatcat 9y ago
    Language has inherent limits, it is an objective subset of subjective concepts that allows us to communicate. Thinking somthing is beautiful and having others think similarly doesn't inherently mean that the beauty can be communicated linguistically. Otherwise, why have music, visual art, etc? If language was capable of describing all concepts you could just describe these concepts linguistically and that would be enough to feel the same beauty about the concept.

fwsgonzo 9y ago

Not at all, just listen to some of the musical channels on Twitch. Channels like pianoimproman (old man who is crazy good) and kylelandrypiano (young) are just leagues above the rest, yet there is no shortage of live musicians. I suggest watching just to see how pianoimproman gets a request for a song he has never heard, then plays his own version of that song based on only hearing a few seconds. A sample from the young man: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655

doktrin 9y ago
It is pleasurable from an auditory perspective but i discern no difference in quality between the linked content and other more generic recordings of the same piece. Again : just because "you" find that something speaks to "you" is in no way an indication that it possesses some inherent quality. More likely, it's an expression of your personal biases and/or group psychosis.
- fwsgonzo 9y ago
  Perhaps, but they do get paid considerably by people to play like this regularly, live. So "you" here must be the viewership then.
freyir 9y ago
You have no idea how many hours these people practice, when they began playing, their practice methods, and so on. And you’re comparing them to other random people on Twitch, who might be casual players just noodling around. So what are we supposed to deduce from this?
- fwsgonzo 9y ago
  My point was only about how there are great minds out there who clearly are not like the rest, whether it be music or ability to perform in another professional capacity. There are Dota2 players who have played the game all their lives, yet not achieved "much" compared to young kids who explode into the scene only to remain in a higher tier. This https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ shows that in that particular game only the 99.95 percentile is pro-level. I've personally played an instrument since I was 7 and while I was playing every day until I was 18 that didn't automatically make me able to produce good music that gives people goosebumps. But I've met plenty who can, without much practice. In fact their earlier music had an unrefined thing about it that made it unique. They were just good, I guess. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense.

Spooky23 9y ago

Its a good point, it just can’t be measured by lay people. Anecdotally, I always use my sister and I as examples. We’re 18 months apart, similar IQ, same upbringing, etc. you can hand her any music producing instrument and she’ll be making music in a few minutes. I am the opposite, barely able to play Mary had a little lamb. I’m pretty sure you can use tools like Myers Briggs to correlate personality traits to talents in certain areas. Some people are attracted to a career in accounting, which sounds like a vision of hell on earth to others. Ditto for music or other arts.