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You’re wrong Quincy agrees with the article. The emotion part is what the article addresses. You gotta have that “swing” and that can’t be learned or taught,

You’re wrong Quincy agrees with the article. The emotion part is what the article addresses. You gotta have that “swing” and that can’t be learned or taught, it can be enhanced, but you can’t practice into having it. As Quincy says it comes naturally, but not everyone has it. If you have the emotion part you can develop the techniques, but no the other way around. My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it”, she sounds like a robot playing, it’s painful to hear, but she plays in time, all the right notes, but it’s just not there. In drawing it’s most evident, some people can draw and others can’t, no amount of practice will help me. The emotion side of things kicks in more so with drawing.

doktrin 9y ago
> My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it” Absurdly subjective. If you can neither qualify nor quantify "it" you shouldn't start levying it as some standard of quality.
- robotresearcher 9y ago
  Nonsense. The reason we have the concept of ‘it’ and ‘je ne sais qois’ is because we (many of us) find that a useful concept. Subjective assessment of art is absolutely allowed without rigorous metrics. The differences in timing, attack, etc from a good player and a merely competent player are objectively measurable, but a non expert can hear the difference and form an option without understanding what they are using to discriminate. Edit: fixed French spelling.
  - torstenvl 9y ago
    L'orthographe français contient du... je ne sais quoi.
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      Pardon. Veuillez excuser mon erreur.
      - torstenvl 9y ago
        Il n'y a rien à excuser, Monsieur. :)
        robotresearcher 9y ago
        Except I failed in my attempt to fix it and now I’m embarrassed :( !
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > ‘je ne sais cois’ if you're going to pompously bandy a term about, you should at least spell it correctly
    - robotresearcher 9y ago
      I can’t avoid a subjective assessment of these posts, despite the objectively impeccable spelling.
      - doktrin 9y ago
        the spelling of your posts is objectively not impeccable
        deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
  - thatcat 9y ago
    Exactly, the English equivalent would be 'ineffable', as in ineffible beauty; which describes a quality of an aestetic that is beyond words and relates to how the sum of techniques used together is greater than the individual techniques employed by themselves in the context of art.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      > the English equivalent would be 'ineffable' which describes a quality that is beyond words also known as "inherently subjective" just because you deem something to be inexpressible doesn't mean it actually is.
      - thatcat 9y ago
        Language has inherent limits, it is an objective subset of subjective concepts that allows us to communicate. Thinking somthing is beautiful and having others think similarly doesn't inherently mean that the beauty can be communicated linguistically. Otherwise, why have music, visual art, etc? If language was capable of describing all concepts you could just describe these concepts linguistically and that would be enough to feel the same beauty about the concept.
- fwsgonzo 9y ago
  Not at all, just listen to some of the musical channels on Twitch. Channels like pianoimproman (old man who is crazy good) and kylelandrypiano (young) are just leagues above the rest, yet there is no shortage of live musicians. I suggest watching just to see how pianoimproman gets a request for a song he has never heard, then plays his own version of that song based on only hearing a few seconds. A sample from the young man: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655
  - doktrin 9y ago
    It is pleasurable from an auditory perspective but i discern no difference in quality between the linked content and other more generic recordings of the same piece. Again : just because "you" find that something speaks to "you" is in no way an indication that it possesses some inherent quality. More likely, it's an expression of your personal biases and/or group psychosis.
    - fwsgonzo 9y ago
      Perhaps, but they do get paid considerably by people to play like this regularly, live. So "you" here must be the viewership then.
  - freyir 9y ago
    You have no idea how many hours these people practice, when they began playing, their practice methods, and so on. And you’re comparing them to other random people on Twitch, who might be casual players just noodling around. So what are we supposed to deduce from this?
    - fwsgonzo 9y ago
      My point was only about how there are great minds out there who clearly are not like the rest, whether it be music or ability to perform in another professional capacity. There are Dota2 players who have played the game all their lives, yet not achieved "much" compared to young kids who explode into the scene only to remain in a higher tier. This https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ shows that in that particular game only the 99.95 percentile is pro-level. I've personally played an instrument since I was 7 and while I was playing every day until I was 18 that didn't automatically make me able to produce good music that gives people goosebumps. But I've met plenty who can, without much practice. In fact their earlier music had an unrefined thing about it that made it unique. They were just good, I guess. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  Its a good point, it just can’t be measured by lay people. Anecdotally, I always use my sister and I as examples. We’re 18 months apart, similar IQ, same upbringing, etc. you can hand her any music producing instrument and she’ll be making music in a few minutes. I am the opposite, barely able to play Mary had a little lamb. I’m pretty sure you can use tools like Myers Briggs to correlate personality traits to talents in certain areas. Some people are attracted to a career in accounting, which sounds like a vision of hell on earth to others. Ditto for music or other arts.
GuiA 9y ago
Not everyone can become Michelangelo, but anyone can become fairly proficient with a piece of charcoal with just a few months of instruction (given motor abilities that fall within the norm, but I don’t think this is what you were alluding to)
jdietrich 9y ago
>In drawing it’s most evident, some people can draw and others can’t, no amount of practice will help me. That isn't remotely true, we just don't teach children to draw. Most teachers believe that it's an innate ability and have no idea how to teach it even if they wanted to. Drawing is a straightforward skill that can be quickly learned, but it's highly counter-intuitive to most people. If you think you can't draw, pick up a copy of Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards or Keys to Drawing by Bert Dodson.
- m_mueller 9y ago
  Yes. I see this with Japanese people. For some reason they are all able to draw better, judt like they all fold Origamis. I think it‘s just deliberate school practice.
- dkersten 9y ago
  I agree. I currently can’t draw for shit, but at one point I went from not being able to draw to being pretty good at it, because I practiced. Then I stopped practicing and now I can’d draw anymore. Some months ago I also watched and worked through a little bit of an online drawing course and was doing quite well, although I stopped due to lack of time and now can’t draw anymore once again. I also have no talent for sleight of hand, I’ve never been good at it, until recently, when I deliberately started practivcing for a few hours every single day (learning sleights for card illusions and caradistry). I’m not particularly good yet, but the difference from even a couple of weeks ago is huge. It takes deliberate practice, motivation and time. Sometimes, you also need a good teacher.
DonHopkins 9y ago
I only know the words he said, I don't know if he has read the article or whether or not he agrees with it. Going by his words: "You don’t have to practice emotion because that comes naturally. Technique is different." By that he means that you do have to practice technique. The title of the article is "No Causal Effect of Music Practice on Ability". That sounds like the words Quincy Jones said directly contradict the words in the title of the article, to me.
KhanMahGretsch 9y ago
>she plays in time, all the right notes, but it’s just not there. In my limited experience, I find the "it" factor which cannot be learned is the ability to keep time; that "swing" you mention. Given that your wife possesses great technical ability, perhaps self-consciousness is a factor in the perceived lack-of-emotion in her playing?
- sideshowb 9y ago
  I was thinking the opposite - it's possible to over focus on the technique and lack self consciousness for what the whole sounds like. Maybe it could be developed by recording and playing back, even having a go at music production.

doktrin 9y ago

> My wife is a very good piano player, but she doesn’t have “it” Absurdly subjective. If you can neither qualify nor quantify "it" you shouldn't start levying it as some standard of quality.

robotresearcher 9y ago
Nonsense. The reason we have the concept of ‘it’ and ‘je ne sais qois’ is because we (many of us) find that a useful concept. Subjective assessment of art is absolutely allowed without rigorous metrics. The differences in timing, attack, etc from a good player and a merely competent player are objectively measurable, but a non expert can hear the difference and form an option without understanding what they are using to discriminate. Edit: fixed French spelling.
- torstenvl 9y ago
  L'orthographe français contient du... je ne sais quoi.
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    Pardon. Veuillez excuser mon erreur.
    - torstenvl 9y ago
      Il n'y a rien à excuser, Monsieur. :)
      - robotresearcher 9y ago
        Except I failed in my attempt to fix it and now I’m embarrassed :( !
- doktrin 9y ago
  > ‘je ne sais cois’ if you're going to pompously bandy a term about, you should at least spell it correctly
  - robotresearcher 9y ago
    I can’t avoid a subjective assessment of these posts, despite the objectively impeccable spelling.
    - doktrin 9y ago
      the spelling of your posts is objectively not impeccable
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
- thatcat 9y ago
  Exactly, the English equivalent would be 'ineffable', as in ineffible beauty; which describes a quality of an aestetic that is beyond words and relates to how the sum of techniques used together is greater than the individual techniques employed by themselves in the context of art.
  - doktrin 9y ago
    > the English equivalent would be 'ineffable' which describes a quality that is beyond words also known as "inherently subjective" just because you deem something to be inexpressible doesn't mean it actually is.
    - thatcat 9y ago
      Language has inherent limits, it is an objective subset of subjective concepts that allows us to communicate. Thinking somthing is beautiful and having others think similarly doesn't inherently mean that the beauty can be communicated linguistically. Otherwise, why have music, visual art, etc? If language was capable of describing all concepts you could just describe these concepts linguistically and that would be enough to feel the same beauty about the concept.
fwsgonzo 9y ago
Not at all, just listen to some of the musical channels on Twitch. Channels like pianoimproman (old man who is crazy good) and kylelandrypiano (young) are just leagues above the rest, yet there is no shortage of live musicians. I suggest watching just to see how pianoimproman gets a request for a song he has never heard, then plays his own version of that song based on only hearing a few seconds. A sample from the young man: https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/227075655
- doktrin 9y ago
  It is pleasurable from an auditory perspective but i discern no difference in quality between the linked content and other more generic recordings of the same piece. Again : just because "you" find that something speaks to "you" is in no way an indication that it possesses some inherent quality. More likely, it's an expression of your personal biases and/or group psychosis.
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    Perhaps, but they do get paid considerably by people to play like this regularly, live. So "you" here must be the viewership then.
- freyir 9y ago
  You have no idea how many hours these people practice, when they began playing, their practice methods, and so on. And you’re comparing them to other random people on Twitch, who might be casual players just noodling around. So what are we supposed to deduce from this?
  - fwsgonzo 9y ago
    My point was only about how there are great minds out there who clearly are not like the rest, whether it be music or ability to perform in another professional capacity. There are Dota2 players who have played the game all their lives, yet not achieved "much" compared to young kids who explode into the scene only to remain in a higher tier. This https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ https://dota.rgp.io/mmr/ shows that in that particular game only the 99.95 percentile is pro-level. I've personally played an instrument since I was 7 and while I was playing every day until I was 18 that didn't automatically make me able to produce good music that gives people goosebumps. But I've met plenty who can, without much practice. In fact their earlier music had an unrefined thing about it that made it unique. They were just good, I guess. Sorry if that doesn't make any sense.
Spooky23 9y ago
Its a good point, it just can’t be measured by lay people. Anecdotally, I always use my sister and I as examples. We’re 18 months apart, similar IQ, same upbringing, etc. you can hand her any music producing instrument and she’ll be making music in a few minutes. I am the opposite, barely able to play Mary had a little lamb. I’m pretty sure you can use tools like Myers Briggs to correlate personality traits to talents in certain areas. Some people are attracted to a career in accounting, which sounds like a vision of hell on earth to others. Ditto for music or other arts.

GuiA 9y ago

Not everyone can become Michelangelo, but anyone can become fairly proficient with a piece of charcoal with just a few months of instruction (given motor abilities that fall within the norm, but I don’t think this is what you were alluding to)

jdietrich 9y ago

>In drawing it’s most evident, some people can draw and others can’t, no amount of practice will help me. That isn't remotely true, we just don't teach children to draw. Most teachers believe that it's an innate ability and have no idea how to teach it even if they wanted to. Drawing is a straightforward skill that can be quickly learned, but it's highly counter-intuitive to most people. If you think you can't draw, pick up a copy of Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain by Betty Edwards or Keys to Drawing by Bert Dodson.

m_mueller 9y ago
Yes. I see this with Japanese people. For some reason they are all able to draw better, judt like they all fold Origamis. I think it‘s just deliberate school practice.
dkersten 9y ago
I agree. I currently can’t draw for shit, but at one point I went from not being able to draw to being pretty good at it, because I practiced. Then I stopped practicing and now I can’d draw anymore. Some months ago I also watched and worked through a little bit of an online drawing course and was doing quite well, although I stopped due to lack of time and now can’t draw anymore once again. I also have no talent for sleight of hand, I’ve never been good at it, until recently, when I deliberately started practivcing for a few hours every single day (learning sleights for card illusions and caradistry). I’m not particularly good yet, but the difference from even a couple of weeks ago is huge. It takes deliberate practice, motivation and time. Sometimes, you also need a good teacher.

DonHopkins 9y ago

I only know the words he said, I don't know if he has read the article or whether or not he agrees with it. Going by his words: "You don’t have to practice emotion because that comes naturally. Technique is different." By that he means that you do have to practice technique. The title of the article is "No Causal Effect of Music Practice on Ability". That sounds like the words Quincy Jones said directly contradict the words in the title of the article, to me.

KhanMahGretsch 9y ago

>she plays in time, all the right notes, but it’s just not there. In my limited experience, I find the "it" factor which cannot be learned is the ability to keep time; that "swing" you mention. Given that your wife possesses great technical ability, perhaps self-consciousness is a factor in the perceived lack-of-emotion in her playing?

sideshowb 9y ago
I was thinking the opposite - it's possible to over focus on the technique and lack self consciousness for what the whole sounds like. Maybe it could be developed by recording and playing back, even having a go at music production.