6 ms·

Student Loan Debt Clock

40 points by sndean 9y ago

sammy_herring 9y ago
Ouch?!
dsacco 9y ago
Why are credit cards and auto loans displayed as static, rounded numbers? When is the last time those were updated?
oever 9y ago
That's a tenth of all USA mortgages. https://www.federalreserve.gov/data/mortoutstand/current.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/data/mortoutstand/current.htm
- reader5000 9y ago
  And paying on a mortgage yields a house you can live in. Paying on a student loan yields an ongoing exploitation of older generations on younger generations.
  - cheez 9y ago
    one could say the same about housing
  - DenisM 9y ago
    Retired people no longer produce anything but they still consume nearly as much. The exploitation of the young by the old is the bedrock of civilization, we only ever fight about best ways of doing it.
    - gowld 9y ago
      Children don't produce anything but consume nearly as much. The exploitation of the old by the young is the bedrock of civilization. An "old person" invented the computer you post to HN on.
    - reader5000 9y ago
      True but this is the first generation where the young people have to pay up front just for the opportunity to work to pay for the old.
- skwirl 9y ago
  Not comparable at all. The total value of owner-occupied real estate is 2.4 times the total owner-occupied mortgage debt. [1][2] It's not much of a problem having $300k in mortgage debt if my house is worth $500k. I can sell at any time and pocket $200k. I can't do anything with a student loan. I can't sell my education. I can't discharge the loan in bankruptcy - something that could be done with a mortgage if I were somehow underwater. There's no way to escape it, and it mostly impacts the young who both have lower income available to deal with it and should putting away as much for retirement as possible. [1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HHMSDODNS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HHMSDODNS [2]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOOREVLMHMV https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOOREVLMHMV
jean- 9y ago
Other than the fact that credit card and auto loan numbers are not updating, I like the concept. Not using tabular figures[1] here is really unforgivable, though. Maybe I'm missing a font? [1]: https://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-3/numbers/proportional-vs-tabular-figures https://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-3/num...
- eric_h 9y ago
  I have literally never heard the term 'tabular figures' to refer to a fixed width font. The font they're using is "Varela Round" which isn't fixed width to begin with; so whether it's missing or not is largely irrelevant. edit: another comment indicates that tabular numbers can be a feature of even a non fixed width/monospace font. Dunno if Varela Round uses those.
tenukitime 9y ago
Really grateful I will be able to graduate debt free. Doing a degree like CS where I can get a great paying internship really helps. I think the biggest cause for numbers like this is that some of us see it as problem while tons of people see this kind of debt as totally normal. I cringe when I see friends who I know are graduating with large amounts of debt run out and buy a brand new car within months of graduatingbecause they are suddenly making 50-60k and feel like they've got it made. Most of the time it'll all work out just fine, but I can't help bit think that there's a better way.
- slowmovintarget 9y ago
  I'm not sure about "just fine". For many (especially in the software profession), the difference between doing "OK" and being well-off in later years is that new car. Paying off debt early at that point in one's career is more profitable than investing, even.
  - yathern 9y ago
    > Paying off debt early at that point in one's career is more profitable than investing, even. Not necessarily true. My student loans had an interest rate of around 4%. The market is about double that. This means that if I invest everything, and pay off my loans slowly, I eek out a few extra bucks. I actually did that math and decided it was wiser to eliminate my debt. Total net worth isn't really the goal, not worrying about money is the goal. And not having to worry about monthly payments, and knowing I have no outstanding debts is much nicer.
    - mathgladiator 9y ago
      The same thing is true with having a house. Sure, the math works out in favor of holding the debt and investing in the market. However, this logic has never sat well with me because it assumes that you can predict your situation for 30 years. The conspiratorial part of mind suggests that finance is more invested in having people in debt than without, and the math is there to beat people over the head saying "you are not playing this game well because this math says you will lose in the end"
myth_buster 9y ago
Nice domain, also shows up #2 on search results for _current student debt us_! Calculated as a linear extrapolation with debt intercept of $883,000,000,000 on 01 June 2010 and a gradient of $2853.8/sec.
mobilefriendly 9y ago
The median student loan debt is just $13,000, and seventy-five percent of borrowers owe less than $29,000. That's easily paid by most working professionals over a decade or so. The student loan "crisis" is fake news. The largest loans are for high income professional degrees like law and medicine.
- Retric 9y ago
  That's probably not measuring what you think it is. It includes people who had 50k in debt and paid it down to 13k not just people who graduated with 50k. It even includes people who failed out an now owe 10k without getting a degree and people that went to Trucking schools. PS: Parents take on 10k of debt and kid takes on 50k, that's now 2 households with debt etc.
- cmiles74 9y ago
  I disagree. The average student loan debt from a public college is around $35k and that excludes private colleges, who are not required to report. Keep in mind that a great many students (who are not all wealthy) attend private colleges. It certainly is not "fake news". http://www.ibtimes.com/student-debt-crisis-2016-new-graduates-owe-record-breaking-average-37000-loans-2365195 http://www.ibtimes.com/student-debt-crisis-2016-new-graduate...
- losteric 9y ago
  What fraction of borrowers end up in a decent professional career? > That's easily paid by most working professionals over a decade or so. So most people can start saving money around 30? That's a regression from past generations. When are they going buy a house, start a family, and eventually retire?
- ourmandave 9y ago
  The maximum a dependent student can borrow is $31,000. https://financialaid.umbc.edu/types-of-aid/federal-loans/stafford-limits/ https://financialaid.umbc.edu/types-of-aid/federal-loans/sta... Unseen in the $13,000 number are the Parental Plus loans that parents (and grandparents) are taking out that aren't in the student's name, but are just as unforgivable.
EddieSpeaks 9y ago
How much of these are non-STEM debts? Can we have a breakdown of what courses are wasting money?
crdoconnor 9y ago
Somebody should make a physical one of these and put it in Union Square.
- wtvanhest 9y ago
  Seems like a good use of crowd funding. I'll commit $10.
- ckdarby 9y ago
  Sounds like you're going to be first to do that.
Fifer82 9y ago
That isnt far off UK national debt?? http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/
lettergram 9y ago
And nearly all of them are now being serviced by discover financial services (DFS). Which is why I just keep dumping investment money into them. Literally, its going to be either the government tells them to write it off, or a constant 7% growth for the next decade plus.
chestervonwinch 9y ago
I think the visual presentation would be better if a monospace font was used for the debt "odometers", so that the different loan types align and so that the student debt amount doesn't jiggle back and forth each time it's changed.
- NikolaNovak 9y ago
  Interesting - shows up monospace and perfectly alligned on my screen (Chrome, Win10)
  - wereHamster 9y ago
    I fail to see how, since the page CSS uses font-family: 'Varela Round', sans-serif, and varela is not a monospace font.
    - hbosch 9y ago
      It may be using tabular numbers, a common feature in many non-monospace fonts. https://practicaltypography.com/alternate-figures.html#tabular-and-proportional-figures https://practicaltypography.com/alternate-figures.html#tabul...
    - NikolaNovak 9y ago
      Don't know what to tell you, but it looks like this and it stays aligned through changes: https://imgur.com/a/k7y0P https://imgur.com/a/k7y0P
iambateman 9y ago
My wife and I have spent the first 1,000 days of our marriage paying off $120k in student loans. Fortunately, we both hold good-paying jobs and live in one of the cheapest areas of the country. As a result, we can pay off an average of $3,200/month on the loan while still saving some for retirement and owning a house. Our rate at the beginning was 6.8%. A couple of things... - the student loan interest tax write-off is limited to $2,500/year. The first year of paying off loans, we paid $17,800 in interest. Ergo, I had to pay income tax on the interest I paid to the government for the privilege of an education. It's bizarre to me that we incentivize going to school and then charge income tax on the interest paid. Wealthy folks get to write off all their mortgage interest on their million-dollar mortgages while we pay. It's ridiculous. - Loan companies provide way too many attractive-looking ways to "reduce your monthly payment" by extending your loan. It's called "income-based repayment." They're creating the appearance of being helpful, while extending the loan and causing interest payments to skyrocket. I get that these services can be crucial to the financial health of some folks but the way they push them makes me uncomfortable. - Student debt can be a wonderful, life-changing tool. There's no way my wife could have a graduate degree without it. Now she's a fantastic therapist using her considerable skills and abilities to make people's lives better. Do I wish the education didn't cost us 6% of our careers to pay off? Yes I do. But I wouldn't trade it for anything. - It does feel like we're headed toward a cliff...a cliff where parents are paying off their own student debt while their children are racking up their own.
- iambateman 9y ago
  Btw, there's no way we could've paid off as quickly as we have without a budgeting tool. We use "YNAB" (You need a Budget). https://ynab.com/referral/?ref=pnPV1oqAP-ZfH0oI&utm_source=customer_referral https://ynab.com/referral/?ref=pnPV1oqAP-ZfH0oI&utm_source=c... (disclosure: referral link. If that makes you feel gross, http://ynab.com http://ynab.com) The budget allows me to confidently spend thousands of dollars each month on student loans, without wondering if I have enough to cover living expenses. Plus, most budgeting tools now will auto-import your bank stuff, which is splendid.
  - gowld 9y ago
Bitcoin_McPonzi 9y ago
I graduated college (Hofstra University) debt-free. (B.S. (Math) and M.S. (Computer Science). I took the bus to campus, live at home, and worked while in school. So part of me says "why should kids who wanted to live in a country-club atmosphere far away from home on borrowed money for 4 years get a bailout?" However, I also realize the crippling seriousness of the problem. I think the immediate solution is: The Governments Should Get Out of the Student Loan Business. Now. Allow private companies to give loans, but they're like any other unsecured loan, and you can cover them in a bankruptcy. Tuition will drop like a rock! And maybe people will realize that not everyone has a "right" to go away to a country club for 4 years on borrowed (or someone else's) money. Only if the Government stops backing student loans would I be happy with any sort of loan "forgiveness" program. And I think these people's creditworthiness should forever be tarnished.
- throwawaydebtor 9y ago
  > I took the bus to campus, live at home, and worked while in school. Congratu-fucking-lations. I worked in school too (on top of, you know, the full-time job of getting a CS degree). Still didn’t put a dent in my $90,000 of private loans. > And maybe people will realize that not everyone has a “right” to go away to a country club for 4 years... O Arbiter of Rights, then do tell me who DOES get the PRIVILEGE of obtaining knowledge. Right now, it’s only those who can afford it. > And I think these people’s creditworthiness should be forever tarnished. Sincerely, fuck you. Fuck. You. Wishing future financial ruin on people who were duped by the system is such a shitty thing. I spend a lot of time wishing I had the courage to kill myself because of the debt that’s looming over me. But hey, you got yours so fuck everyone else, right? Go to hell.
- DaggerDagger 9y ago
  Do you think we asked the colleges to turn us into profit centers? College costs have gone up because bureuacracy has bloated. By the times undergrads figure it out it's too late. If you actually went to school to study and ended up in insane amounts of debt (like I did) you wish you hadn't gone even though you were happy to have learned what you did. It's a shitty double edged sword. Not everyone can get scholarships and school isn't easy/cheap enough to make paying for it an option by working through school. Not if you want a real job after school. Frankly it should be free. Why are you charging people to better themselves and their surroundings. It's obscene that we charge people for healthcare and schools. The United States is a corporate neocon fantasy world. Low taxes for the rich, student loans for all.
adolfadi 9y ago
Hey I’m Martins Reed,I’m giving credit to Quick Access Loan Firm.They grant me the sum 35,000.00 USD. within 48 hr’s,.Quick Access Loan Firm is a company into pure loan and debt financing at ROI returns of only 3% to pay off your bills or buy a home Or Increase your Business. please I advise everyone out there who are in need of loan and can be reliable, trusted and capable of repaying back at the due time of funds and be free from scams on the Internet, if you are ready to get a loan contact. (quickaccesloanfirm@gmail.com)

40 points by sndean 9y ago

sammy_herring 9y ago

Ouch?!

dsacco 9y ago

Why are credit cards and auto loans displayed as static, rounded numbers? When is the last time those were updated?

oever 9y ago

That's a tenth of all USA mortgages. https://www.federalreserve.gov/data/mortoutstand/current.htm https://www.federalreserve.gov/data/mortoutstand/current.htm

reader5000 9y ago
And paying on a mortgage yields a house you can live in. Paying on a student loan yields an ongoing exploitation of older generations on younger generations.
- cheez 9y ago
  one could say the same about housing
- DenisM 9y ago
  Retired people no longer produce anything but they still consume nearly as much. The exploitation of the young by the old is the bedrock of civilization, we only ever fight about best ways of doing it.
  - gowld 9y ago
    Children don't produce anything but consume nearly as much. The exploitation of the old by the young is the bedrock of civilization. An "old person" invented the computer you post to HN on.
  - reader5000 9y ago
    True but this is the first generation where the young people have to pay up front just for the opportunity to work to pay for the old.
skwirl 9y ago
Not comparable at all. The total value of owner-occupied real estate is 2.4 times the total owner-occupied mortgage debt. [1][2] It's not much of a problem having $300k in mortgage debt if my house is worth $500k. I can sell at any time and pocket $200k. I can't do anything with a student loan. I can't sell my education. I can't discharge the loan in bankruptcy - something that could be done with a mortgage if I were somehow underwater. There's no way to escape it, and it mostly impacts the young who both have lower income available to deal with it and should putting away as much for retirement as possible. [1]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HHMSDODNS https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HHMSDODNS [2]: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOOREVLMHMV https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/HOOREVLMHMV

jean- 9y ago

Other than the fact that credit card and auto loan numbers are not updating, I like the concept. Not using tabular figures[1] here is really unforgivable, though. Maybe I'm missing a font? [1]: https://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-3/numbers/proportional-vs-tabular-figures https://www.fonts.com/content/learning/fontology/level-3/num...

eric_h 9y ago
I have literally never heard the term 'tabular figures' to refer to a fixed width font. The font they're using is "Varela Round" which isn't fixed width to begin with; so whether it's missing or not is largely irrelevant. edit: another comment indicates that tabular numbers can be a feature of even a non fixed width/monospace font. Dunno if Varela Round uses those.

tenukitime 9y ago

Really grateful I will be able to graduate debt free. Doing a degree like CS where I can get a great paying internship really helps. I think the biggest cause for numbers like this is that some of us see it as problem while tons of people see this kind of debt as totally normal. I cringe when I see friends who I know are graduating with large amounts of debt run out and buy a brand new car within months of graduatingbecause they are suddenly making 50-60k and feel like they've got it made. Most of the time it'll all work out just fine, but I can't help bit think that there's a better way.

slowmovintarget 9y ago
I'm not sure about "just fine". For many (especially in the software profession), the difference between doing "OK" and being well-off in later years is that new car. Paying off debt early at that point in one's career is more profitable than investing, even.
- yathern 9y ago
  > Paying off debt early at that point in one's career is more profitable than investing, even. Not necessarily true. My student loans had an interest rate of around 4%. The market is about double that. This means that if I invest everything, and pay off my loans slowly, I eek out a few extra bucks. I actually did that math and decided it was wiser to eliminate my debt. Total net worth isn't really the goal, not worrying about money is the goal. And not having to worry about monthly payments, and knowing I have no outstanding debts is much nicer.
  - mathgladiator 9y ago
    The same thing is true with having a house. Sure, the math works out in favor of holding the debt and investing in the market. However, this logic has never sat well with me because it assumes that you can predict your situation for 30 years. The conspiratorial part of mind suggests that finance is more invested in having people in debt than without, and the math is there to beat people over the head saying "you are not playing this game well because this math says you will lose in the end"

myth_buster 9y ago

Nice domain, also shows up #2 on search results for _current student debt us_! Calculated as a linear extrapolation with debt intercept of $883,000,000,000 on 01 June 2010 and a gradient of $2853.8/sec.

mobilefriendly 9y ago

The median student loan debt is just $13,000, and seventy-five percent of borrowers owe less than $29,000. That's easily paid by most working professionals over a decade or so. The student loan "crisis" is fake news. The largest loans are for high income professional degrees like law and medicine.

Retric 9y ago
That's probably not measuring what you think it is. It includes people who had 50k in debt and paid it down to 13k not just people who graduated with 50k. It even includes people who failed out an now owe 10k without getting a degree and people that went to Trucking schools. PS: Parents take on 10k of debt and kid takes on 50k, that's now 2 households with debt etc.
cmiles74 9y ago
I disagree. The average student loan debt from a public college is around $35k and that excludes private colleges, who are not required to report. Keep in mind that a great many students (who are not all wealthy) attend private colleges. It certainly is not "fake news". http://www.ibtimes.com/student-debt-crisis-2016-new-graduates-owe-record-breaking-average-37000-loans-2365195 http://www.ibtimes.com/student-debt-crisis-2016-new-graduate...
losteric 9y ago
What fraction of borrowers end up in a decent professional career? > That's easily paid by most working professionals over a decade or so. So most people can start saving money around 30? That's a regression from past generations. When are they going buy a house, start a family, and eventually retire?
ourmandave 9y ago
The maximum a dependent student can borrow is $31,000. https://financialaid.umbc.edu/types-of-aid/federal-loans/stafford-limits/ https://financialaid.umbc.edu/types-of-aid/federal-loans/sta... Unseen in the $13,000 number are the Parental Plus loans that parents (and grandparents) are taking out that aren't in the student's name, but are just as unforgivable.

EddieSpeaks 9y ago

How much of these are non-STEM debts? Can we have a breakdown of what courses are wasting money?

crdoconnor 9y ago

Somebody should make a physical one of these and put it in Union Square.

wtvanhest 9y ago
Seems like a good use of crowd funding. I'll commit $10.
ckdarby 9y ago
Sounds like you're going to be first to do that.

Fifer82 9y ago

That isnt far off UK national debt?? http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/ http://www.nationaldebtclock.co.uk/

lettergram 9y ago

And nearly all of them are now being serviced by discover financial services (DFS). Which is why I just keep dumping investment money into them. Literally, its going to be either the government tells them to write it off, or a constant 7% growth for the next decade plus.

chestervonwinch 9y ago

I think the visual presentation would be better if a monospace font was used for the debt "odometers", so that the different loan types align and so that the student debt amount doesn't jiggle back and forth each time it's changed.

NikolaNovak 9y ago
Interesting - shows up monospace and perfectly alligned on my screen (Chrome, Win10)
- wereHamster 9y ago
  I fail to see how, since the page CSS uses font-family: 'Varela Round', sans-serif, and varela is not a monospace font.
  - hbosch 9y ago
    It may be using tabular numbers, a common feature in many non-monospace fonts. https://practicaltypography.com/alternate-figures.html#tabular-and-proportional-figures https://practicaltypography.com/alternate-figures.html#tabul...
  - NikolaNovak 9y ago
    Don't know what to tell you, but it looks like this and it stays aligned through changes: https://imgur.com/a/k7y0P https://imgur.com/a/k7y0P

iambateman 9y ago

My wife and I have spent the first 1,000 days of our marriage paying off $120k in student loans. Fortunately, we both hold good-paying jobs and live in one of the cheapest areas of the country. As a result, we can pay off an average of $3,200/month on the loan while still saving some for retirement and owning a house. Our rate at the beginning was 6.8%. A couple of things... - the student loan interest tax write-off is limited to $2,500/year. The first year of paying off loans, we paid $17,800 in interest. Ergo, I had to pay income tax on the interest I paid to the government for the privilege of an education. It's bizarre to me that we incentivize going to school and then charge income tax on the interest paid. Wealthy folks get to write off all their mortgage interest on their million-dollar mortgages while we pay. It's ridiculous. - Loan companies provide way too many attractive-looking ways to "reduce your monthly payment" by extending your loan. It's called "income-based repayment." They're creating the appearance of being helpful, while extending the loan and causing interest payments to skyrocket. I get that these services can be crucial to the financial health of some folks but the way they push them makes me uncomfortable. - Student debt can be a wonderful, life-changing tool. There's no way my wife could have a graduate degree without it. Now she's a fantastic therapist using her considerable skills and abilities to make people's lives better. Do I wish the education didn't cost us 6% of our careers to pay off? Yes I do. But I wouldn't trade it for anything. - It does feel like we're headed toward a cliff...a cliff where parents are paying off their own student debt while their children are racking up their own.

iambateman 9y ago
Btw, there's no way we could've paid off as quickly as we have without a budgeting tool. We use "YNAB" (You need a Budget). https://ynab.com/referral/?ref=pnPV1oqAP-ZfH0oI&utm_source=customer_referral https://ynab.com/referral/?ref=pnPV1oqAP-ZfH0oI&utm_source=c... (disclosure: referral link. If that makes you feel gross, http://ynab.com http://ynab.com) The budget allows me to confidently spend thousands of dollars each month on student loans, without wondering if I have enough to cover living expenses. Plus, most budgeting tools now will auto-import your bank stuff, which is splendid.
- gowld 9y ago

Bitcoin_McPonzi 9y ago

I graduated college (Hofstra University) debt-free. (B.S. (Math) and M.S. (Computer Science). I took the bus to campus, live at home, and worked while in school. So part of me says "why should kids who wanted to live in a country-club atmosphere far away from home on borrowed money for 4 years get a bailout?" However, I also realize the crippling seriousness of the problem. I think the immediate solution is: The Governments Should Get Out of the Student Loan Business. Now. Allow private companies to give loans, but they're like any other unsecured loan, and you can cover them in a bankruptcy. Tuition will drop like a rock! And maybe people will realize that not everyone has a "right" to go away to a country club for 4 years on borrowed (or someone else's) money. Only if the Government stops backing student loans would I be happy with any sort of loan "forgiveness" program. And I think these people's creditworthiness should forever be tarnished.

throwawaydebtor 9y ago
> I took the bus to campus, live at home, and worked while in school. Congratu-fucking-lations. I worked in school too (on top of, you know, the full-time job of getting a CS degree). Still didn’t put a dent in my $90,000 of private loans. > And maybe people will realize that not everyone has a “right” to go away to a country club for 4 years... O Arbiter of Rights, then do tell me who DOES get the PRIVILEGE of obtaining knowledge. Right now, it’s only those who can afford it. > And I think these people’s creditworthiness should be forever tarnished. Sincerely, fuck you. Fuck. You. Wishing future financial ruin on people who were duped by the system is such a shitty thing. I spend a lot of time wishing I had the courage to kill myself because of the debt that’s looming over me. But hey, you got yours so fuck everyone else, right? Go to hell.
DaggerDagger 9y ago
Do you think we asked the colleges to turn us into profit centers? College costs have gone up because bureuacracy has bloated. By the times undergrads figure it out it's too late. If you actually went to school to study and ended up in insane amounts of debt (like I did) you wish you hadn't gone even though you were happy to have learned what you did. It's a shitty double edged sword. Not everyone can get scholarships and school isn't easy/cheap enough to make paying for it an option by working through school. Not if you want a real job after school. Frankly it should be free. Why are you charging people to better themselves and their surroundings. It's obscene that we charge people for healthcare and schools. The United States is a corporate neocon fantasy world. Low taxes for the rich, student loans for all.

adolfadi 9y ago

Hey I’m Martins Reed,I’m giving credit to Quick Access Loan Firm.They grant me the sum 35,000.00 USD. within 48 hr’s,.Quick Access Loan Firm is a company into pure loan and debt financing at ROI returns of only 3% to pay off your bills or buy a home Or Increase your Business. please I advise everyone out there who are in need of loan and can be reliable, trusted and capable of repaying back at the due time of funds and be free from scams on the Internet, if you are ready to get a loan contact. (quickaccesloanfirm@gmail.com)