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How do you allow machine to machine payments in a trustless manner without some sort of value transfer protocol? How do you make these transactions with periodi

How do you allow machine to machine payments in a trustless manner without some sort of value transfer protocol? How do you make these transactions with periodic internet connection? Are you saying IoT devices will not need to pay each other?

davidgerard 9y ago
In the finest blockchain tradition, this posits a convoluted solution that doesn't work, to a problem that nobody actually has.
- nuttycoin 9y ago
  So, IoT devices will not need to pay each other? No need to repeat a point without actually adding anything new to discussion. Companies are reaching out to IOTA, perhaps you should tell them their desire for this technology is irrational? Additionally, while IOTA is designed for IoT, it will obviously work with non-IoT devices. If IOTA works, there is no need for many other cryptos to exist.
  - davidgerard 9y ago
    > Companies are reaching out to IOTA In all the cases so far that IOTA put forward of this happening, the company came back denying it.
    - nuttycoin 9y ago
      That is false. Either you are not doing your own research, or you are intentionally spreading misinformation.
iuguy 9y ago
> How do you allow machine to machine payments in a trustless manner without some sort of value transfer protocol? Can you explain to me why this is needed? I genuinely can't think of instances where machines need to pay each other, let alone in a trustless manner vs a centralized solution. People, sure. Machines, no. I'm not trying to be difficult, I've spent weeks trying to think of a situation I've worked on within the IoT space where the machines need to pay each other and haven't been able to come up with one. > How do you make these transactions with periodic internet connection? Again, why would you make such transactions with periodic internet connections? What is the size of the market for semi-connected IoT devices to bill each other, as opposed to the organisations or people using them? > Are you saying IoT devices will not need to pay each other? I'm not saying that. I genuinely haven't been able to think of a situation where a decentralized payment mechanism is necessary. I'll give you a quick rundown of some of the things we can consider IoT that I've done security work on over the past 15 years, and perhaps you can give me some use cases where decentralized machine to machine payment is needed. 1. Process control system for natural resource management - so there's pipes, stuff going through the pipes and PLCs managing the flow. 2. Home routers connected to the Internet with Wifi networks (Think Linksys etc) 3. The Sphero Spiderman kids toy (This was for a third-party, I didn't work for Sphero on this). 4. An Internet-capable TV running different apps like YouTube, Vimeo etc. 5. An in-car location tracking device used to reduce car insurance payments based on speed, areas driven in and types of road driven on. I can kind of see some sort of situation where some of the above might have payment integration useful, but none where it needs to happen on the device itself. If you have any use cases for IOTA where a centralized alternative won't beat it or doesn't already exist, I'd genuinely love to know. It's my biggest stumbling block.
- nuttycoin 9y ago
  Are you familiar with the term "fog computing?" This is one of the main reasons for which IOTA was created. The term was invented by Cisco and since then there has been a lot of effort to come up with a solution. How do you achieve fog computing with no means of transaction of value? Devices will need to pay each other for resource sharing, be it computing power, storage, data, or electricity. Your neighbors will not provide resources to you if you cannot pay them. The problem with centralized payment systems is that they are not permissionless. If you hook your IoT device to your VISA card, your device needs to establish a connection with VISA every time it needs to make a payment, and you need your counterparty to accept payments from VISA. In addition, a large percentage of IoT transactions will be microtransactions. A centralized payment system will have to process insane amounts of transactions whose value are << $.01. IOTA flash channels allow for the streaming of data and payments in real time. A unique property of IOTA is that it is partition-tolerant. Offline nodes can form local subtangles and attach them to the main tangle once internet connection is restored. This is impossible with a centralized payment system. Finally, IOTA is just as much a data transmission protocol as it is a payment protocol. Data transmission on the tangle helps data become more tamper-proof, another important issue in the world of IoT.

davidgerard 9y ago

In the finest blockchain tradition, this posits a convoluted solution that doesn't work, to a problem that nobody actually has.

nuttycoin 9y ago
So, IoT devices will not need to pay each other? No need to repeat a point without actually adding anything new to discussion. Companies are reaching out to IOTA, perhaps you should tell them their desire for this technology is irrational? Additionally, while IOTA is designed for IoT, it will obviously work with non-IoT devices. If IOTA works, there is no need for many other cryptos to exist.
- davidgerard 9y ago
  > Companies are reaching out to IOTA In all the cases so far that IOTA put forward of this happening, the company came back denying it.
  - nuttycoin 9y ago
    That is false. Either you are not doing your own research, or you are intentionally spreading misinformation.

iuguy 9y ago

> How do you allow machine to machine payments in a trustless manner without some sort of value transfer protocol? Can you explain to me why this is needed? I genuinely can't think of instances where machines need to pay each other, let alone in a trustless manner vs a centralized solution. People, sure. Machines, no. I'm not trying to be difficult, I've spent weeks trying to think of a situation I've worked on within the IoT space where the machines need to pay each other and haven't been able to come up with one. > How do you make these transactions with periodic internet connection? Again, why would you make such transactions with periodic internet connections? What is the size of the market for semi-connected IoT devices to bill each other, as opposed to the organisations or people using them? > Are you saying IoT devices will not need to pay each other? I'm not saying that. I genuinely haven't been able to think of a situation where a decentralized payment mechanism is necessary. I'll give you a quick rundown of some of the things we can consider IoT that I've done security work on over the past 15 years, and perhaps you can give me some use cases where decentralized machine to machine payment is needed. 1. Process control system for natural resource management - so there's pipes, stuff going through the pipes and PLCs managing the flow. 2. Home routers connected to the Internet with Wifi networks (Think Linksys etc) 3. The Sphero Spiderman kids toy (This was for a third-party, I didn't work for Sphero on this). 4. An Internet-capable TV running different apps like YouTube, Vimeo etc. 5. An in-car location tracking device used to reduce car insurance payments based on speed, areas driven in and types of road driven on. I can kind of see some sort of situation where some of the above might have payment integration useful, but none where it needs to happen on the device itself. If you have any use cases for IOTA where a centralized alternative won't beat it or doesn't already exist, I'd genuinely love to know. It's my biggest stumbling block.

nuttycoin 9y ago
Are you familiar with the term "fog computing?" This is one of the main reasons for which IOTA was created. The term was invented by Cisco and since then there has been a lot of effort to come up with a solution. How do you achieve fog computing with no means of transaction of value? Devices will need to pay each other for resource sharing, be it computing power, storage, data, or electricity. Your neighbors will not provide resources to you if you cannot pay them. The problem with centralized payment systems is that they are not permissionless. If you hook your IoT device to your VISA card, your device needs to establish a connection with VISA every time it needs to make a payment, and you need your counterparty to accept payments from VISA. In addition, a large percentage of IoT transactions will be microtransactions. A centralized payment system will have to process insane amounts of transactions whose value are << $.01. IOTA flash channels allow for the streaming of data and payments in real time. A unique property of IOTA is that it is partition-tolerant. Offline nodes can form local subtangles and attach them to the main tangle once internet connection is restored. This is impossible with a centralized payment system. Finally, IOTA is just as much a data transmission protocol as it is a payment protocol. Data transmission on the tangle helps data become more tamper-proof, another important issue in the world of IoT.