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"private" or encrypted? It sounds like she was using WeChat, which... I don't think anyone ever had any delusions that this was truly private.

by ohazi 9y ago

z2600 9y ago
I think most people who are not in this group would expect it to be private. My snail mail isn't encrypted, but I have an expectation that it is private.
- wolf550e 9y ago
  Do you think Chinese residents have an expectation that snail mail is private from the government?
  - contingencies 9y ago
    Do you think citizens of western countries (eg. US and UK) do? Do you think the government respects that? https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/12/29/report-nsa-intercepting-laptops-ordered-online-installing-spyware/#2c75e8d413db https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/12/29/report-nsa-... https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/29/5253226/nsa-cia-fbi-laptop-usb-plant-spy https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/29/5253226/nsa-cia-fbi-lapt... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_interception https://books.google.com/books?id=2OZgDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=fbi+mail+interception&source=bl&ots=lUaurDg7_O&sig=P2Q3vp3lL23sLSlZGswnunPeFnY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimwszbkZrZAhUMZawKHXWXDhQQ6AEIdzAO#v=onepage&q=fbi%20mail%20interception&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=2OZgDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=P... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mai... http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/81july/mail.htm http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/81july/mail.htm https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/mar/27/intercepting-mail-stasi-tax-inspectors https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/m...
- craftyguy 9y ago
  > but I have an expectation that it is private Regardless of what your expectations are, it's not private. Just because you expect something to be private does not mean that it actually is.
  - ComputerGuru 9y ago
    Yes it is. USPS first class (ie regular not bulk) mail IS absolutely private and may not be opened by authorities without a warrant (and tampering with them by non authorities is a federal crime). What security agencies have done is scan and collect all envelope info (metadata) which was ruled to be not private (makes sense) but with powerful enough cameras, lights, and enhancement software that most letters sent in standard envelopes can leak their contents.
    - tehlike 9y ago
      And exploiting security bugs is not unlawful? This is a secyrity bug in the transport mechanism of data.
      - ComputerGuru 9y ago
        > And exploiting security bugs is not unlawful? Not when you have all of congress (minus a very select very few) wagging their tails and eager to please you it's not.
- abalone 9y ago
  She's a tech journalist covering China. She knows WeChat is monitored. This was more of a confirmation of how blatant it is.
- lnanek2 9y ago
  I live in the US and have had snail mail opened without my permission and forwarded to me at the post office before. Once they put a sticker on it, once they didn't even bother. So, no, your snail mail isn't private at all. Government is free to open it and examine it any time they want. Legally the inspector is only supposed to open discount classes of mail, which is about half of them, to make sure you aren't lying to ship something cheaper, but in practice they are free to open anything and do.
callumlocke 9y ago
No one is surprised that non-encrypted channels are being surveilled. What's interesting is how offhand it's becoming, that a police officer can casually peruse someone's private messages and apparently doesn't take much care to conceal this fact, even from a journalist.
- williamscales 9y ago
  From what I've heard it's pretty common for controversial private messages to simply disappear from one's inbox.
  - exikyut 9y ago
    Can 100% confirm this happens on imgur too. Shared a link - I don't remember what it was, unfortunately - trying to ID someone who'd done something stupid on the internet, that sort of thing. My "I just sent an interesting PM and it probably won't disappear but just in case it does this is a canary message" stayed, and the interesting message actually did disappear. The chat bubble remained, the message content was gone (so the bubble was tiny). Feel really really stupid I believed "nah, it won't disappear" enough not to screenshot both messages beforehand >.< TIL that day that the imgur moderators (that, like all unpaid moderator situations, have a reasonable amount of drama associated with them) have access to PMs. Nice.
    - kuschku 9y ago
      The same applies to IRC. An IRC network owned by PrivateInternetAccess, Snoonet, also applies censoring filters to your private messages, and redirecte them to volunteer moderators in case you should use words that they consider worthy of censoring ("to prevent spam", of course) I think that says everything one needs to know when even companies that claim to focus on privacy do this.
- everybodyknows 9y ago
  Maybe something deeply cultural in this. An American couple I knew went to China back in the 90s, to teach English. They discovered all they had to do to request say, more towels was to mention it aloud in their room. Must have put a bit of a damper on their love life.
camillomiller 9y ago
Actually it’s not even about guessing or delusions: WeChat plainly admitted that it shares everything with the Chinese Government. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16721230/wechat-china-app-mini-programs-messaging-electronic-id-system https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16721230/wechat-china-app-...

"private" or encrypted? It sounds like she was using WeChat, which... I don't think anyone ever had any delusions that this was truly private.

by ohazi 9y ago

"private" or encrypted? It sounds like she was using WeChat, which... I don't think anyone ever had any delusions that this was truly private.

z2600 9y ago

I think most people who are not in this group would expect it to be private. My snail mail isn't encrypted, but I have an expectation that it is private.

wolf550e 9y ago
Do you think Chinese residents have an expectation that snail mail is private from the government?
- contingencies 9y ago
  Do you think citizens of western countries (eg. US and UK) do? Do you think the government respects that? https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/12/29/report-nsa-intercepting-laptops-ordered-online-installing-spyware/#2c75e8d413db https://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain/2013/12/29/report-nsa-... https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/29/5253226/nsa-cia-fbi-laptop-usb-plant-spy https://www.theverge.com/2013/12/29/5253226/nsa-cia-fbi-lapt... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_interception https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postal_interception https://books.google.com/books?id=2OZgDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=PA97&dq=fbi+mail+interception&source=bl&ots=lUaurDg7_O&sig=P2Q3vp3lL23sLSlZGswnunPeFnY&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwimwszbkZrZAhUMZawKHXWXDhQQ6AEIdzAO#v=onepage&q=fbi%20mail%20interception&f=false https://books.google.com/books?id=2OZgDQAAQBAJ&pg=PA97&lpg=P... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mail.html http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/04/us/monitoring-of-snail-mai... http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/81july/mail.htm http://www.pucl.org/from-archives/81july/mail.htm https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/mar/27/intercepting-mail-stasi-tax-inspectors https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/henryporter/2010/m...
craftyguy 9y ago
> but I have an expectation that it is private Regardless of what your expectations are, it's not private. Just because you expect something to be private does not mean that it actually is.
- ComputerGuru 9y ago
  Yes it is. USPS first class (ie regular not bulk) mail IS absolutely private and may not be opened by authorities without a warrant (and tampering with them by non authorities is a federal crime). What security agencies have done is scan and collect all envelope info (metadata) which was ruled to be not private (makes sense) but with powerful enough cameras, lights, and enhancement software that most letters sent in standard envelopes can leak their contents.
  - tehlike 9y ago
    And exploiting security bugs is not unlawful? This is a secyrity bug in the transport mechanism of data.
    - ComputerGuru 9y ago
      > And exploiting security bugs is not unlawful? Not when you have all of congress (minus a very select very few) wagging their tails and eager to please you it's not.
abalone 9y ago
She's a tech journalist covering China. She knows WeChat is monitored. This was more of a confirmation of how blatant it is.
lnanek2 9y ago
I live in the US and have had snail mail opened without my permission and forwarded to me at the post office before. Once they put a sticker on it, once they didn't even bother. So, no, your snail mail isn't private at all. Government is free to open it and examine it any time they want. Legally the inspector is only supposed to open discount classes of mail, which is about half of them, to make sure you aren't lying to ship something cheaper, but in practice they are free to open anything and do.

callumlocke 9y ago

No one is surprised that non-encrypted channels are being surveilled. What's interesting is how offhand it's becoming, that a police officer can casually peruse someone's private messages and apparently doesn't take much care to conceal this fact, even from a journalist.

williamscales 9y ago
From what I've heard it's pretty common for controversial private messages to simply disappear from one's inbox.
- exikyut 9y ago
  Can 100% confirm this happens on imgur too. Shared a link - I don't remember what it was, unfortunately - trying to ID someone who'd done something stupid on the internet, that sort of thing. My "I just sent an interesting PM and it probably won't disappear but just in case it does this is a canary message" stayed, and the interesting message actually did disappear. The chat bubble remained, the message content was gone (so the bubble was tiny). Feel really really stupid I believed "nah, it won't disappear" enough not to screenshot both messages beforehand >.< TIL that day that the imgur moderators (that, like all unpaid moderator situations, have a reasonable amount of drama associated with them) have access to PMs. Nice.
  - kuschku 9y ago
    The same applies to IRC. An IRC network owned by PrivateInternetAccess, Snoonet, also applies censoring filters to your private messages, and redirecte them to volunteer moderators in case you should use words that they consider worthy of censoring ("to prevent spam", of course) I think that says everything one needs to know when even companies that claim to focus on privacy do this.
everybodyknows 9y ago
Maybe something deeply cultural in this. An American couple I knew went to China back in the 90s, to teach English. They discovered all they had to do to request say, more towels was to mention it aloud in their room. Must have put a bit of a damper on their love life.

camillomiller 9y ago

Actually it’s not even about guessing or delusions: WeChat plainly admitted that it shares everything with the Chinese Government. https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16721230/wechat-china-app-mini-programs-messaging-electronic-id-system https://www.theverge.com/2018/2/1/16721230/wechat-china-app-...