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> I don't see anything about the US being better. There is a lot bad going on in the US, but China is ten or a hundred times worse. For instance, the web is ma

> I don't see anything about the US being better. There is a lot bad going on in the US, but China is ten or a hundred times worse. For instance, the web is massively censored, and political dissidents get sent to jail by the hundreds or thousands. Furthermore, in the US we still have enough freedom of speech that we can criticize surveillance at places like HN, and even organize efforts to resist it, even political campaigns, but in China that is completely impossible. It seems to me that if people were to come to believe that things are as hopeless in the US as in China, then they would give up all efforts at resistance. I think that would be a terrible mistake.

mirimir 9y ago
I agree. Surveillance in the US is by no means as bad as it is in China. However, consider that the NSA intercepts all Internet traffic, excerpts and indexes the data, and makes it available through a Google-like interface. But they claim that there's no substantive surveillance until some human queries that data. Arguably, even AI processing would not be considered to be surveillance. And sure, they claim that they're not looking at traffic between US citizens. However, there's the SOD program:[0] > The unit of the DEA that distributes the information is called the Special Operations Division, or SOD. Two dozen partner agencies comprise the unit, including the FBI, CIA, NSA, Internal Revenue Service and the Department of Homeland Security. It was created in 1994 to combat Latin American drug cartels and has grown from several dozen employees to several hundred. > Today, much of the SOD's work is classified, and officials asked that its precise location in Virginia not be revealed. The documents reviewed by Reuters are marked "Law Enforcement Sensitive," a government categorization that is meant to keep them confidential. > "Remember that the utilization of SOD cannot be revealed or discussed in any investigative function," a document presented to agents reads. The document specifically directs agents to omit the SOD's involvement from investigative reports, affidavits, discussions with prosecutors and courtroom testimony. Agents are instructed to then use "normal investigative techniques to recreate the information provided by SOD." DEA even has a history of SOD online.[1] That is, parallel construction. And given the secrecy about SOD-based evidence, we have no idea how widely it's used. Potentially, the full power of the NSA could be turned against anything that federal investigators consider as legitimate targets. I could go on at length. And I won't. But consider the situation at the Mexican border. Consider surveillance around presidential conventions, WTO meetings, etc. Consider reports about Stingray units cited near USCIS offices. And those surveillance aircraft circling over areas of interest. Sure, things aren't "as hopeless in the US as in China", but they're getting there in some ways. And all it would take is some serious crisis and drama, real or manufactured. 0) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir... 1) https://www.deamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/042215-DEAMuseum-LectureSeries-MLS-SOD-transcript.pdf https://www.deamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/042215-...
- mirimir 9y ago
  Belated edit: "DEA even has ..." doesn't belong in the quoted text. And "sited", not "cited".

mirimir 9y ago

I agree. Surveillance in the US is by no means as bad as it is in China. However, consider that the NSA intercepts all Internet traffic, excerpts and indexes the data, and makes it available through a Google-like interface. But they claim that there's no substantive surveillance until some human queries that data. Arguably, even AI processing would not be considered to be surveillance. And sure, they claim that they're not looking at traffic between US citizens. However, there's the SOD program:[0] > The unit of the DEA that distributes the information is called the Special Operations Division, or SOD. Two dozen partner agencies comprise the unit, including the FBI, CIA, NSA, Internal Revenue Service and the Department of Homeland Security. It was created in 1994 to combat Latin American drug cartels and has grown from several dozen employees to several hundred. > Today, much of the SOD's work is classified, and officials asked that its precise location in Virginia not be revealed. The documents reviewed by Reuters are marked "Law Enforcement Sensitive," a government categorization that is meant to keep them confidential. > "Remember that the utilization of SOD cannot be revealed or discussed in any investigative function," a document presented to agents reads. The document specifically directs agents to omit the SOD's involvement from investigative reports, affidavits, discussions with prosecutors and courtroom testimony. Agents are instructed to then use "normal investigative techniques to recreate the information provided by SOD." DEA even has a history of SOD online.[1] That is, parallel construction. And given the secrecy about SOD-based evidence, we have no idea how widely it's used. Potentially, the full power of the NSA could be turned against anything that federal investigators consider as legitimate targets. I could go on at length. And I won't. But consider the situation at the Mexican border. Consider surveillance around presidential conventions, WTO meetings, etc. Consider reports about Stingray units cited near USCIS offices. And those surveillance aircraft circling over areas of interest. Sure, things aren't "as hopeless in the US as in China", but they're getting there in some ways. And all it would take is some serious crisis and drama, real or manufactured. 0) https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-directs-agents-to-cover-up-program-used-to-investigate-americans-idUSBRE97409R20130805 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-dea-sod/exclusive-u-s-dir... 1) https://www.deamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/042215-DEAMuseum-LectureSeries-MLS-SOD-transcript.pdf https://www.deamuseum.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/042215-...

mirimir 9y ago
Belated edit: "DEA even has ..." doesn't belong in the quoted text. And "sited", not "cited".