6 ms·

I can show you the self is not an illusion - ask those people to give you all of their possessions to someone else, the poor or some charity. Suddenly, they'll

by jotm 9y ago

I can show you the self is not an illusion - ask those people to give you all of their possessions to someone else, the poor or some charity. Suddenly, they'll care about their well being above others and their eternal connection to everyone else is shattered.

dang 9y ago
That doesn't show the self is not an illusion. It could be an illusion that is widely believed.
- whatshisface 9y ago
  If the self is an illusion who is being fooled? (Obviously I experience things - scientific research showing that the self is complicated and many-faceted don't really serve to get rid of the idea...)
  - dang 9y ago
    The claim is that some sort of universal self gets fooled into thinking that it is a bunch of disjoint individual selves. Whether the word 'self' is best for both concepts, I couldn't say.
psyc 9y ago
Is hypocrisy in proponents of a belief actually a good argument against the belief? This reminds me of those arguments that presume if solipsism is true, its proponents have to act like psychopaths, or that if determinism is true, its proponents have to act apathetic. In every case, if the proponents dutifully performed their beliefs, that would merely indicate they hold the belief, not that it is true.
westiseast 9y ago
It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given the implications of the research. The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in. Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the sufferer is worthless or stupid or unwanted etc. In those world views, other people are often seen in very negative light - they’re critical, or assholes, or dangerous, or perhaps you’re so needy for love and attention that you endlessly see other people as your savior (and constantly make bad relationships as a result). The idea that we just need love and kindness and selflessness and we’re all connected maaaan - that’s a childish interpretation. As is the idea that interconnectednesa and empathy falls apart in a realistic adult world of possessions and basic needs. In the context of mental illness, being able to experience connectedness and heightened empathy might mean seeing other people for who they really are, not who they appear to be in your distorted worldview. It might mean realizing that other people are similar to you and you’re not alone in your struggle, or realizing that you can give support to someone else instead of constantly needing support from them. Sometimes breakthroughs like that take years in therapy, but might be achieved much more quickly using mushrooms. Hope that helps dissolve the cynicism.
- jotm 9y ago
  Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles... individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to depression it is?
  - westiseast 9y ago
    > And most people don’t actually care about you Well... yeah. I mean, imagine you had super critical parents who picked on your every mistake as a child. Now you suffer from social anxiety and feel intense shame and fear in public because you think everyone is constantly criticizing you and talking about you. Being able to relax and be yourself knowing that most people won’t care either way is a huge step forward.
  - drvdevd 9y ago
    It’s been speculated by researchers that the therapeutic effects we are seeing may in fact be due to a physical change - specifically potent anti-inflammatory effects of 5ht-2a agonists, though this has been confirmed more for other psychedelic drugs such as DOI, at non-psychoactive dosages (and in rats) [1]. Hence the psychological narrative may be backed by an actual psychiatric, physiochemical change. An actual change, in “reality” - in other words, assuming some form of inflammation is involved in most depressive states... [1] DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0075426
  - rosser 9y ago
    > Back to depression it is? For some people, I suppose. For others, a non-trivial point of the work is to learn not to care that other people don't care. It's about improving yourself, changing the relationship you have with the only person you will always be with, regardless of what other people might say, think, or do — that their behavior is entirely about them and has nothing whatsoever to do with you. And that trying to make their behavior about you is just as much an ego-trap as the more obvious things you'd associate with that notion. It's pretty remarkable the degree to which a little compassion and self-awareness can take the sting out of other people's lacking those things.
nostrademons 9y ago
Does that mean that folks who do give a significant portion of their wealth to charity are evidence that the self is an illusion?
- jotm 9y ago
  Well, I got nothing... They're good people I guess? I'll never know, mushrooms are illegal and I can't get my hands on them.
  - jessaustin 9y ago
    They grow wild in many locations... look around among the trees at the edges of fields where cattle graze. The first time a good friend of mine had them, that's where that good friend found them. b^) Be sure you've got the right ones, since many mushrooms are poisonous in a bad way.
    - thedirt0115 9y ago
      Do NOT eat random mushrooms you find in the wild. A trip to Amsterdam is cheaper than a hospital bill (and certainly better than dying).
Raphmedia 9y ago
What about philanthropists who are very poor? E.g. A homeless person giving you his last good pair of gloves because you look to be freezing?
- jotm 9y ago
  Huh, that's a good point. I've never met anyone like that though, so my worldview is limited, I guess.
  - Raphmedia 9y ago
    I won't start a philosophical debate on the topic. However, I can tell you that I have met such people while I was growing up poor. I hope that at the very least, I can shift your worldview a bit.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nugga 9y ago
You are not your thoughts. What is meant by the self being an illusion is that there is no thinker behind your thoughts, no entity in your brain that is the 'you'. Most people do not even realize they are constantly submerged in thought and/or dialogue with their 'inner voice'. That is not the real you though. If you've suffered some mental problems you can even have multiple thoughts in your conscious scope at once or thoughts whirling past so fast you can barely make out what their contents are. You may not even want to think or like these thoughts. Some traumatized people are affected by what they describe as intrusive thoughts that have so much momentum or energy that they greatly modify their consciousness and behavior and emotions, for example cause depression. The false ego is a tough nut to crack because it has so much invested in thinking it is real and acting out whatever. Whatever the consciousness or your brain or body experiences as you is an accumulation of traits, thought patterns, reactions all layered up to form a somewhat consistent/cohesive/continuous experience. If you have the drive to look behind the curtain or are interested in altered states of consciousness, you can experience these insights into the nature of consciousness by prolonged daily meditation practice, with or without psychedelics. Eventually with enough awareness you may be able to simply 'step outside' of thoughts or witness thoughts happening and see as they pass through your consciousness without being involved in or affected by them. Despite all this, you may still want to put that body before someone else and that may be totally ok.
- monktastic1 9y ago
  Nice summary. As another poster points out in this thread, this "witnessing" phase is not yet the fully Monty, nor is even the unitive consciousness phase that can come after that. The full non-self experience is beyond the no-ego experience. Which all probably sounds like mumbo-jumbo to someone who hasn't traveled the path.
  - nugga 9y ago
    You are right in that the ability to be beyond the thoughtstream is only the beginning. You probably know all this, but I think with further inquiry and experience it is inevitable to come to the conclusion that there is no free will, it's just atoms dancing and vibrating and from that an elaborate interconnected mechanism rises. With no free will there is no doer or you as a person, it is simply the universe unfolding and these bodies are only 'pawns' reacting to stimuli or whatever variables these human biocomputers work on. Us humans have the capacity for pretty advanced heuristics and we can become aware of the underlying mechanisms and the subconcsious, and through that awareness manipulate the system but that still forgoes any doers. I guess you could say they're revelations and be grateful you stumbled on them in this life. We need to go deeper.

by jotm 9y ago

dang 9y ago

That doesn't show the self is not an illusion. It could be an illusion that is widely believed.

whatshisface 9y ago
If the self is an illusion who is being fooled? (Obviously I experience things - scientific research showing that the self is complicated and many-faceted don't really serve to get rid of the idea...)
- dang 9y ago
  The claim is that some sort of universal self gets fooled into thinking that it is a bunch of disjoint individual selves. Whether the word 'self' is best for both concepts, I couldn't say.

psyc 9y ago

Is hypocrisy in proponents of a belief actually a good argument against the belief? This reminds me of those arguments that presume if solipsism is true, its proponents have to act like psychopaths, or that if determinism is true, its proponents have to act apathetic. In every case, if the proponents dutifully performed their beliefs, that would merely indicate they hold the belief, not that it is true.

westiseast 9y ago

It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given the implications of the research. The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in. Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the sufferer is worthless or stupid or unwanted etc. In those world views, other people are often seen in very negative light - they’re critical, or assholes, or dangerous, or perhaps you’re so needy for love and attention that you endlessly see other people as your savior (and constantly make bad relationships as a result). The idea that we just need love and kindness and selflessness and we’re all connected maaaan - that’s a childish interpretation. As is the idea that interconnectednesa and empathy falls apart in a realistic adult world of possessions and basic needs. In the context of mental illness, being able to experience connectedness and heightened empathy might mean seeing other people for who they really are, not who they appear to be in your distorted worldview. It might mean realizing that other people are similar to you and you’re not alone in your struggle, or realizing that you can give support to someone else instead of constantly needing support from them. Sometimes breakthroughs like that take years in therapy, but might be achieved much more quickly using mushrooms. Hope that helps dissolve the cynicism.

jotm 9y ago
Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles... individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to depression it is?
- westiseast 9y ago
  > And most people don’t actually care about you Well... yeah. I mean, imagine you had super critical parents who picked on your every mistake as a child. Now you suffer from social anxiety and feel intense shame and fear in public because you think everyone is constantly criticizing you and talking about you. Being able to relax and be yourself knowing that most people won’t care either way is a huge step forward.
- drvdevd 9y ago
  It’s been speculated by researchers that the therapeutic effects we are seeing may in fact be due to a physical change - specifically potent anti-inflammatory effects of 5ht-2a agonists, though this has been confirmed more for other psychedelic drugs such as DOI, at non-psychoactive dosages (and in rats) [1]. Hence the psychological narrative may be backed by an actual psychiatric, physiochemical change. An actual change, in “reality” - in other words, assuming some form of inflammation is involved in most depressive states... [1] DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0075426
- rosser 9y ago
  > Back to depression it is? For some people, I suppose. For others, a non-trivial point of the work is to learn not to care that other people don't care. It's about improving yourself, changing the relationship you have with the only person you will always be with, regardless of what other people might say, think, or do — that their behavior is entirely about them and has nothing whatsoever to do with you. And that trying to make their behavior about you is just as much an ego-trap as the more obvious things you'd associate with that notion. It's pretty remarkable the degree to which a little compassion and self-awareness can take the sting out of other people's lacking those things.

nostrademons 9y ago

Does that mean that folks who do give a significant portion of their wealth to charity are evidence that the self is an illusion?

jotm 9y ago
Well, I got nothing... They're good people I guess? I'll never know, mushrooms are illegal and I can't get my hands on them.
- jessaustin 9y ago
  They grow wild in many locations... look around among the trees at the edges of fields where cattle graze. The first time a good friend of mine had them, that's where that good friend found them. b^) Be sure you've got the right ones, since many mushrooms are poisonous in a bad way.
  - thedirt0115 9y ago
    Do NOT eat random mushrooms you find in the wild. A trip to Amsterdam is cheaper than a hospital bill (and certainly better than dying).

Raphmedia 9y ago

What about philanthropists who are very poor? E.g. A homeless person giving you his last good pair of gloves because you look to be freezing?

jotm 9y ago
Huh, that's a good point. I've never met anyone like that though, so my worldview is limited, I guess.
- Raphmedia 9y ago
  I won't start a philosophical debate on the topic. However, I can tell you that I have met such people while I was growing up poor. I hope that at the very least, I can shift your worldview a bit.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nugga 9y ago

You are not your thoughts. What is meant by the self being an illusion is that there is no thinker behind your thoughts, no entity in your brain that is the 'you'. Most people do not even realize they are constantly submerged in thought and/or dialogue with their 'inner voice'. That is not the real you though. If you've suffered some mental problems you can even have multiple thoughts in your conscious scope at once or thoughts whirling past so fast you can barely make out what their contents are. You may not even want to think or like these thoughts. Some traumatized people are affected by what they describe as intrusive thoughts that have so much momentum or energy that they greatly modify their consciousness and behavior and emotions, for example cause depression. The false ego is a tough nut to crack because it has so much invested in thinking it is real and acting out whatever. Whatever the consciousness or your brain or body experiences as you is an accumulation of traits, thought patterns, reactions all layered up to form a somewhat consistent/cohesive/continuous experience. If you have the drive to look behind the curtain or are interested in altered states of consciousness, you can experience these insights into the nature of consciousness by prolonged daily meditation practice, with or without psychedelics. Eventually with enough awareness you may be able to simply 'step outside' of thoughts or witness thoughts happening and see as they pass through your consciousness without being involved in or affected by them. Despite all this, you may still want to put that body before someone else and that may be totally ok.

monktastic1 9y ago
Nice summary. As another poster points out in this thread, this "witnessing" phase is not yet the fully Monty, nor is even the unitive consciousness phase that can come after that. The full non-self experience is beyond the no-ego experience. Which all probably sounds like mumbo-jumbo to someone who hasn't traveled the path.
- nugga 9y ago
  You are right in that the ability to be beyond the thoughtstream is only the beginning. You probably know all this, but I think with further inquiry and experience it is inevitable to come to the conclusion that there is no free will, it's just atoms dancing and vibrating and from that an elaborate interconnected mechanism rises. With no free will there is no doer or you as a person, it is simply the universe unfolding and these bodies are only 'pawns' reacting to stimuli or whatever variables these human biocomputers work on. Us humans have the capacity for pretty advanced heuristics and we can become aware of the underlying mechanisms and the subconcsious, and through that awareness manipulate the system but that still forgoes any doers. I guess you could say they're revelations and be grateful you stumbled on them in this life. We need to go deeper.