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> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. Programmer now, gained a law degree in a pr

by giobox 9y ago

> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. Programmer now, gained a law degree in a previous life. Know lots of folks who studied medicine. The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible, and furthermore I'd argue it's pretty insulting to insinuate that Computer Science is somehow more difficult in this regard. While I can't speak fully for medics, a law degree "hardly scratches the surface" as you put it either.

terminalcommand 9y ago
I am about to graduate from law school. I also agree that a law degree "hardly scratches the surface" of law. That's why in most countries lawyer candidates are required to do mandatory legal internships. And even after becoming a lawyer, you need to gain a lot of experience before you can be trusted to practice law without the supervision of an experienced lawyer.
zozin 9y ago
Do you have a throwaway email? I'd like to ask you a few questions about transitioning from law to programming. Thanks.
- giobox 9y ago
  Afraid I don't really have much to say about this - I did a postgrad Computer Science Masters, applied for Software Engineer jobs and started new career immediately following completion of Masters. I've known several law graduates follow this path. If like me you've always had an interest in the field and were a reasonably competent programmer before starting the CS degree this wasn't all that difficult by comparison - I found attaining the CS Masters easier than studying Law if I'm honest.
  - tostitos1979 9y ago
    CS PhD here and worked over a decade. Yesterday, I made a list of over a dozen technical areas in CS I feel inadequate on. I think the issue is not that a CS Masters is easy. It is that CS knowledge is a never ending firehose. When I graduated (2008), most NoSQL systems were not even created. For anyone transitioning from law/medicine to CS, while I welcome you to the field (good for you!! tech is awesome), just be aware that tech gets obsolete very fast. While an older lawyer or doctor may be considered experienced, the newbies right out of school may run laps around you (lots of examples but the creator of Ethereum comes to mind. I know oh so many PhDs who work on distributed systems but it took a Waterloo undergrad student to think out of the box).
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
u801e 9y ago
> While I can't speak fully for medics Medical school will teach you the basic science and theory and give you basic clinical experience, one still needs to complete a 3 to 7 year residency in the field one wants to practice in. Then there are fellowships that one may want to do if they want to specialize even further. It's definitely not the case that you learn everything you need to know in school.
pathseeker 9y ago
>furthermore I'd argue it's pretty insulting to insinuate that Computer Science is somehow more difficult in this regard Why in the world would that be insulting and who is it insulting to? If anything it's a reflection of how immature the industry is and how computer science degrees have minute overlap with software engineering.
- infinite8s 9y ago
  It's insulting to all the people who are doctors/lawyers/any number of other fields where the degree is just the entry point to being able to work in it.
- dsacco 9y ago
  > Why in the world would that be insulting and who is it insulting to? It’s insulting to diminish the legitimate achievements of other people through unjustified comparison, in particular when doing so results in the elevation of the person doing it. There is no objective criteria by which we can state computer science is a more difficult field than law or medicine. To imply that is therefore offensive, and people are not “immature” just because they react to offensive things by being insulted, even if you believe they shouldn’t feel insulted.
  - looiid 9y ago
    Fuck you you dumb ass retard
DubiousPusher 9y ago
Yeah if we're talking about barrier to entry, I can't think of one much greater than the LSAT.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- sethrin 9y ago
  That's an interesting idea. What would you say makes the LSAT difficult?
laythea 9y ago
I don't think that is what he/she meant. I don't know what your professional software experience has been like, but software is applied and required to some extent in all industries nowadays, and therefore there is a broader scope required. It is also more of a moving target. I'm a contractor providing software engineering services. One contract I might be doing Subsea control systems, the next OpenGL graphics hardware programming sprinkled with Java and Eclipse, the next contract may be embedded assembly language for turbine control systems etc. Law/Medicine maybe moving, but I am fairly certain a doctor or lawyer does not "move as fast". They tend to stay specialised in maybe an area or two. In fact, for a serious medical condition, from a patients point of view, I would be quite alarmed to be seen by a doctor that has not "specialised" in my condition. Ideally, one that does nothing but my condition. I think it is easier for a doctor/lawyer to fall into the trap of becoming specialised in one or two areas alone than a software engineer, simply for the fact that if I did not constantly have to become specialised in a new area, usually for every contract), then I would not be able to pay the bills. So I imagine that is what he/she meant.
- hobbyjogger 9y ago
  Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to. > The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fields, languages, and scopes. You don't really see that in law or medicine. Doctors can't jump around from orthopedic surgeon to psychiatrist to dermatologist. And it's very uncommon (at least for lawyers under 60 or so) to be both a corporate lawyer and a litigator. As giobox mentioned, the sheer size of the domains of law and medicine all but require doctors and lawyers to specialize. That's certainly true to some extent with computer science but it doesn't seem to be quite as strong in that field.
  - laythea 9y ago
    I think you misinterpreted me a little. I think the reason that lawyers and doctors cannot "jump around" is not because, for example, a lawyer cannot absorb the information required to be both a good corporate lawyer and a good litigator, due to it being too much. They can. It is that the system that they choose to be in (law/medicine) demands the individual to be certified and formally trained to such an extent that it cripples this kind of professional mobility. This is not true in software. Not because of any other reason other than society is catching up. Unlike the fields of law and medicine, where those fields are growing "linearly" with society. It is also the reason that I do not by law require to be a chartered engineer to perform my job to the full extent.
regulation_d 9y ago
One of my law professors speculated that you learn about 3% of what you need to be a lawyer in law school. At the time, I thought that was a bit conservative. In hindsight, it seems pretty fair.

by giobox 9y ago

terminalcommand 9y ago

I am about to graduate from law school. I also agree that a law degree "hardly scratches the surface" of law. That's why in most countries lawyer candidates are required to do mandatory legal internships. And even after becoming a lawyer, you need to gain a lot of experience before you can be trusted to practice law without the supervision of an experienced lawyer.

zozin 9y ago

Do you have a throwaway email? I'd like to ask you a few questions about transitioning from law to programming. Thanks.

giobox 9y ago
Afraid I don't really have much to say about this - I did a postgrad Computer Science Masters, applied for Software Engineer jobs and started new career immediately following completion of Masters. I've known several law graduates follow this path. If like me you've always had an interest in the field and were a reasonably competent programmer before starting the CS degree this wasn't all that difficult by comparison - I found attaining the CS Masters easier than studying Law if I'm honest.
- tostitos1979 9y ago
  CS PhD here and worked over a decade. Yesterday, I made a list of over a dozen technical areas in CS I feel inadequate on. I think the issue is not that a CS Masters is easy. It is that CS knowledge is a never ending firehose. When I graduated (2008), most NoSQL systems were not even created. For anyone transitioning from law/medicine to CS, while I welcome you to the field (good for you!! tech is awesome), just be aware that tech gets obsolete very fast. While an older lawyer or doctor may be considered experienced, the newbies right out of school may run laps around you (lots of examples but the creator of Ethereum comes to mind. I know oh so many PhDs who work on distributed systems but it took a Waterloo undergrad student to think out of the box).
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

u801e 9y ago

> While I can't speak fully for medics Medical school will teach you the basic science and theory and give you basic clinical experience, one still needs to complete a 3 to 7 year residency in the field one wants to practice in. Then there are fellowships that one may want to do if they want to specialize even further. It's definitely not the case that you learn everything you need to know in school.

pathseeker 9y ago

>furthermore I'd argue it's pretty insulting to insinuate that Computer Science is somehow more difficult in this regard Why in the world would that be insulting and who is it insulting to? If anything it's a reflection of how immature the industry is and how computer science degrees have minute overlap with software engineering.

infinite8s 9y ago
It's insulting to all the people who are doctors/lawyers/any number of other fields where the degree is just the entry point to being able to work in it.
dsacco 9y ago
> Why in the world would that be insulting and who is it insulting to? It’s insulting to diminish the legitimate achievements of other people through unjustified comparison, in particular when doing so results in the elevation of the person doing it. There is no objective criteria by which we can state computer science is a more difficult field than law or medicine. To imply that is therefore offensive, and people are not “immature” just because they react to offensive things by being insulted, even if you believe they shouldn’t feel insulted.
- looiid 9y ago
  Fuck you you dumb ass retard

DubiousPusher 9y ago

Yeah if we're talking about barrier to entry, I can't think of one much greater than the LSAT.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sethrin 9y ago
That's an interesting idea. What would you say makes the LSAT difficult?

laythea 9y ago

I don't think that is what he/she meant. I don't know what your professional software experience has been like, but software is applied and required to some extent in all industries nowadays, and therefore there is a broader scope required. It is also more of a moving target. I'm a contractor providing software engineering services. One contract I might be doing Subsea control systems, the next OpenGL graphics hardware programming sprinkled with Java and Eclipse, the next contract may be embedded assembly language for turbine control systems etc. Law/Medicine maybe moving, but I am fairly certain a doctor or lawyer does not "move as fast". They tend to stay specialised in maybe an area or two. In fact, for a serious medical condition, from a patients point of view, I would be quite alarmed to be seen by a doctor that has not "specialised" in my condition. Ideally, one that does nothing but my condition. I think it is easier for a doctor/lawyer to fall into the trap of becoming specialised in one or two areas alone than a software engineer, simply for the fact that if I did not constantly have to become specialised in a new area, usually for every contract), then I would not be able to pay the bills. So I imagine that is what he/she meant.

hobbyjogger 9y ago
Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to. > The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fields, languages, and scopes. You don't really see that in law or medicine. Doctors can't jump around from orthopedic surgeon to psychiatrist to dermatologist. And it's very uncommon (at least for lawyers under 60 or so) to be both a corporate lawyer and a litigator. As giobox mentioned, the sheer size of the domains of law and medicine all but require doctors and lawyers to specialize. That's certainly true to some extent with computer science but it doesn't seem to be quite as strong in that field.
- laythea 9y ago
  I think you misinterpreted me a little. I think the reason that lawyers and doctors cannot "jump around" is not because, for example, a lawyer cannot absorb the information required to be both a good corporate lawyer and a good litigator, due to it being too much. They can. It is that the system that they choose to be in (law/medicine) demands the individual to be certified and formally trained to such an extent that it cripples this kind of professional mobility. This is not true in software. Not because of any other reason other than society is catching up. Unlike the fields of law and medicine, where those fields are growing "linearly" with society. It is also the reason that I do not by law require to be a chartered engineer to perform my job to the full extent.

regulation_d 9y ago

One of my law professors speculated that you learn about 3% of what you need to be a lawyer in law school. At the time, I thought that was a bit conservative. In hindsight, it seems pretty fair.