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IMO this is very bad news for the economy. Amazon will do very well as a delivery service, because unlike competition they have underpaid and overworked deliver

by jacek 9y ago

IMO this is very bad news for the economy. Amazon will do very well as a delivery service, because unlike competition they have underpaid and overworked deliverers. They basically uberified delivery. The costs are much lower, but delivery jobs will shift to low paid, no benefits 'gigs'. Amazon is more and more scary as it monopolizes more and more businesses.

philfrasty 9y ago
„...unlike competition they have underpaid and overworked deliverers...“# This is a pretty accurate general description of the delivery industry per se, not Amazon specific.
- fitchjo 9y ago
  Wouldn't that be an indication that the wages are at market?
  - nawgszy 9y ago
    >at market Ah yes, the calling card of people that think systematic exploitation of workers in a global economy where only the top few are gaining wealth is fine because "free market rules" matter in a world full of regulatory capture and industries with too high of a barrier to entry to foster true competition.
    - Godel_unicode 9y ago
      > high of a barrier to entry to foster true competition. The article is literally about true competition being attempted in a high-moat business.
      - addicted 9y ago
        This isn't true competition. This is vertical integration. Amazon isn't offering to deliver Walmart packages for a price.
        tcoff91 9y ago
        Actually that's exactly what the article is about. Amazon has already had their own delivery drivers for a long time, they are now directly competing with UPS and FedEx by shipping packages for businesses that don't operate on Amazon's eCommerce platform.
        toomuchtodo 9y ago
        If Amazon loses money on each delivery to stoke its market share, Walmart should use it as its delivery service until Amazon has exhausted its foray into last mile logistics.
        Godel_unicode 9y ago
        That's literally exactly what they're offering. This is directly competing with FedEx/UPS. "...the new service will entail the online retail giant picking up packages from businesses and shipping them to consumers."""
    - Fins 9y ago
      Because paying for things more than they are worth makes all the sense. Soviet experiment worked out really well! Of course what Amazon will pay their delivery personnel will match the quality of Amazon service, such as it is, anyway.
      - bigmanwalter 9y ago
        I am happy to tip my waiters well. Works out great for me!
        Fins 9y ago
        Note -- you said tip. And I imagine you tip if you got at least acceptable service (something that looking at comments here doesn't happen too often with AMZL).
- joncrane 9y ago
  When I was a jumper for UPS in my college years, it was known that UPS had the best pay "in the trucking industry." UPS drivers could clear six figures after about 10 years. I think they averaged about 80k. Now it's true that they worked them to the bone, but they were paid well. Being a UPS driver also comes with a lot of perks. My driver had several lady friends on his route. Most of the business he picked up from loved him and we got lots of Christmas presents. Not sure if their compensation has kept up with inflation but it wasn't a bad job at all.
  - nullbyte 9y ago
    Facts. UPS has excellent perks for their employees.
  - astura 9y ago
    I have a facebook friend who is a driver at UPS and she absolutely loves it.
  - chrisper 9y ago
    Thanks to the union for that, I think.
  - arkades 9y ago
    You can make a solid argument UPS delivery folks have better lifetime earnings than physicians: http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html
zerotolerance 9y ago
Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service." Not sure how increasing competition in any space creates a monopoly.
- SmooL 9y ago
  I believe in the implication is that Amazon will cut out the competition because of its cost advantage, leading towards a monopoly, not unlike what it's (trying) to do in many other sectors.
- dredmorbius 9y ago
  There's a difference between a new entrant appearing, and a firm with a monopolistic presence in one (or more) areas extending vertically into others. Note that Amazon has a distinct and proven track record of utilising its monopoly position to squeeze competing and complementary firms in other spaces. Notably with Hachette. http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-and-hachette-explained-20140602-story.html http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-and-...
- nerfhammer 9y ago
  "monopoly" is just a moral classification for something that is "big" now. It doesn't mean lack of competition or have any other strict definition anymore.
lolsal 9y ago
What specifically makes them underpaid? Are their wages getting stolen or illegally withheld? Is there some market force that is coercing lower wages than they would get otherwise?
- klenwell 9y ago
  For one political trend that answers your question in part: According to the Legal Defense Foundation, right-to-work laws prohibit union security agreements, or agreements between employers and labor unions, that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring. Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers,[2] or requiring employees to pay a fee to unions that have negotiated the labor contract all the employees work under. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law As noted elsewhere in this subthread, UPS by contrast is unionized (or used to be or is in parts) and seems to offer a livable wage to its drivers. Whereas the Gig Economy rationalization seems to be: "Show me the gun that was held to your head when you accepted this lousy job."
  - refurb 9y ago
    I don't think Right to Work laws are the problem. I see no issue with not forcing employees to join a union. If the union actually does a good job, employees should want to join the union*.
    - dash2 9y ago
      The issue is that the union provides a public good. Strike for a pay rise? Your non-union colleagues will get that too. Hire a lawyer to sue for better health and safety? Employees who never paid their dues will benefit. These concerns don't persuade me personally that Right to Work laws are bad. I'm just telling you they exist and probably have some validity.
refurb 9y ago
Based on the posts on HN, one of two things will happen: 1. Enough people will say "screw Prime" and Amazon will start trying to figure out how to fix that. 2. The turnover for delivery employees will be so bad, that it will cost Amazon more than if they just paid them better and had better working conditions.
- losteverything 9y ago
  3. Gigster with intent to steal. Absolutely no way to tell lost vs damaged vs misdelivery vs opened & reboxed vs stolen. It just never madr it
  - prepend 9y ago
    It should be pretty easy to identify this based on value of package, etc. A driver could steal one package, but anything consistent would be quickly detected and dealt with harshly (eg, predict when a sting will be most effective and coordinate with police, etc).
- jstalin 9y ago
  No, not in the "pro-worker" world. Amazon will just continue "exploiting" workers and there will be no consequence. Customers will be completely happy with shitty service.
seizethecheese 9y ago
Maybe this is bad for certain workers, but there's no reason to believe it's bad for the economy. The money saved on paying delivery drivers will be allocated elsewhere.
- galvarez800 9y ago
  The offshore accounts of corporate executives?
  - seizethecheese 9y ago
    Perhaps, but also perhaps toward investment.
    - makr17 9y ago
      ... in fur coats and diamond jewelry?

by jacek 9y ago

philfrasty 9y ago

„...unlike competition they have underpaid and overworked deliverers...“# This is a pretty accurate general description of the delivery industry per se, not Amazon specific.

fitchjo 9y ago
Wouldn't that be an indication that the wages are at market?
- nawgszy 9y ago
  >at market Ah yes, the calling card of people that think systematic exploitation of workers in a global economy where only the top few are gaining wealth is fine because "free market rules" matter in a world full of regulatory capture and industries with too high of a barrier to entry to foster true competition.
  - Godel_unicode 9y ago
    > high of a barrier to entry to foster true competition. The article is literally about true competition being attempted in a high-moat business.
    - addicted 9y ago
      This isn't true competition. This is vertical integration. Amazon isn't offering to deliver Walmart packages for a price.
      - tcoff91 9y ago
        Actually that's exactly what the article is about. Amazon has already had their own delivery drivers for a long time, they are now directly competing with UPS and FedEx by shipping packages for businesses that don't operate on Amazon's eCommerce platform.
        toomuchtodo 9y ago
        If Amazon loses money on each delivery to stoke its market share, Walmart should use it as its delivery service until Amazon has exhausted its foray into last mile logistics.
      - Godel_unicode 9y ago
        That's literally exactly what they're offering. This is directly competing with FedEx/UPS. "...the new service will entail the online retail giant picking up packages from businesses and shipping them to consumers."""
  - Fins 9y ago
    Because paying for things more than they are worth makes all the sense. Soviet experiment worked out really well! Of course what Amazon will pay their delivery personnel will match the quality of Amazon service, such as it is, anyway.
    - bigmanwalter 9y ago
      I am happy to tip my waiters well. Works out great for me!
      - Fins 9y ago
        Note -- you said tip. And I imagine you tip if you got at least acceptable service (something that looking at comments here doesn't happen too often with AMZL).
joncrane 9y ago
When I was a jumper for UPS in my college years, it was known that UPS had the best pay "in the trucking industry." UPS drivers could clear six figures after about 10 years. I think they averaged about 80k. Now it's true that they worked them to the bone, but they were paid well. Being a UPS driver also comes with a lot of perks. My driver had several lady friends on his route. Most of the business he picked up from loved him and we got lots of Christmas presents. Not sure if their compensation has kept up with inflation but it wasn't a bad job at all.
- nullbyte 9y ago
  Facts. UPS has excellent perks for their employees.
- astura 9y ago
  I have a facebook friend who is a driver at UPS and she absolutely loves it.
- chrisper 9y ago
  Thanks to the union for that, I think.
- arkades 9y ago
  You can make a solid argument UPS delivery folks have better lifetime earnings than physicians: http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html http://www.er-doctor.com/doctor_income.html

zerotolerance 9y ago

Monopoly: "the exclusive possession or control of the supply or trade in a commodity or service." Not sure how increasing competition in any space creates a monopoly.

SmooL 9y ago
I believe in the implication is that Amazon will cut out the competition because of its cost advantage, leading towards a monopoly, not unlike what it's (trying) to do in many other sectors.
dredmorbius 9y ago
There's a difference between a new entrant appearing, and a firm with a monopolistic presence in one (or more) areas extending vertically into others. Note that Amazon has a distinct and proven track record of utilising its monopoly position to squeeze competing and complementary firms in other spaces. Notably with Hachette. http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-and-hachette-explained-20140602-story.html http://www.latimes.com/books/jacketcopy/la-et-jc-amazon-and-...
nerfhammer 9y ago
"monopoly" is just a moral classification for something that is "big" now. It doesn't mean lack of competition or have any other strict definition anymore.

lolsal 9y ago

What specifically makes them underpaid? Are their wages getting stolen or illegally withheld? Is there some market force that is coercing lower wages than they would get otherwise?

klenwell 9y ago
For one political trend that answers your question in part: According to the Legal Defense Foundation, right-to-work laws prohibit union security agreements, or agreements between employers and labor unions, that govern the extent to which an established union can require employees' membership, payment of union dues, or fees as a condition of employment, either before or after hiring. Right-to-work laws do not aim to provide general guarantee of employment to people seeking work, but rather are a government regulation of the contractual agreements between employers and labor unions that prevents them from excluding non-union workers,[2] or requiring employees to pay a fee to unions that have negotiated the labor contract all the employees work under. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-to-work_law As noted elsewhere in this subthread, UPS by contrast is unionized (or used to be or is in parts) and seems to offer a livable wage to its drivers. Whereas the Gig Economy rationalization seems to be: "Show me the gun that was held to your head when you accepted this lousy job."
- refurb 9y ago
  I don't think Right to Work laws are the problem. I see no issue with not forcing employees to join a union. If the union actually does a good job, employees should want to join the union*.
  - dash2 9y ago
    The issue is that the union provides a public good. Strike for a pay rise? Your non-union colleagues will get that too. Hire a lawyer to sue for better health and safety? Employees who never paid their dues will benefit. These concerns don't persuade me personally that Right to Work laws are bad. I'm just telling you they exist and probably have some validity.

refurb 9y ago

Based on the posts on HN, one of two things will happen: 1. Enough people will say "screw Prime" and Amazon will start trying to figure out how to fix that. 2. The turnover for delivery employees will be so bad, that it will cost Amazon more than if they just paid them better and had better working conditions.

losteverything 9y ago
3. Gigster with intent to steal. Absolutely no way to tell lost vs damaged vs misdelivery vs opened & reboxed vs stolen. It just never madr it
- prepend 9y ago
  It should be pretty easy to identify this based on value of package, etc. A driver could steal one package, but anything consistent would be quickly detected and dealt with harshly (eg, predict when a sting will be most effective and coordinate with police, etc).
jstalin 9y ago
No, not in the "pro-worker" world. Amazon will just continue "exploiting" workers and there will be no consequence. Customers will be completely happy with shitty service.

seizethecheese 9y ago

Maybe this is bad for certain workers, but there's no reason to believe it's bad for the economy. The money saved on paying delivery drivers will be allocated elsewhere.

galvarez800 9y ago
The offshore accounts of corporate executives?
- seizethecheese 9y ago
  Perhaps, but also perhaps toward investment.
  - makr17 9y ago
    ... in fur coats and diamond jewelry?