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> In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money than practically anyone else on earth due to nothing but the physical

> In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money than practically anyone else on earth due to nothing but the physical location I was born. Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? You're not entirely wrong, but that's a very limited view on how the world works. It's not all random. We're not all rolling dice and separating into "haves" and "haven'ts". Once upon a time: Somebody's parents moved to the coast. Somebody's predecessors funded and built the Louvre (and managed to keep priceless things safe despite war, disease, famine, etc.). Various parties spent decades (or centuries!) of history recruiting and utilizing world-class talent, raising world-class capital reserves, and building world-class facilities for their universities.

d0lph 9y ago
This is why people don't like the concept of privilege, it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances.
- wfo 9y ago
  If people don't like the concept, they don't really understand it. The way the word is often used and even the word itself, absolutely that ruffles some feathers and rightly so. They do studies, if people are given massive advantages (e.g. rolling two dice instead of one in monopoly and starting with double the cash) that are obvious and explicit, people will still believe they deserved to win, they earned their victory. Recognizing a lot of your success is because of dumb luck (yes you worked hard, but millions of others worked just as hard or harder and weren't lucky) is a good way to stay humble, and to remind yourself to stop pretending you "deserve" what you have -- we all live in a fundamentally (intentionally) unjust economic system where "desert" has no meaning but we try to superimpose it on our lives because of a need to believe things are fair. Privilege is a word that can be a good way to remember that. It can also be used as a rhetorical weapon to bludgeon people. The word itself is terrible and I hate it: it is not a "privilege" in my view to be treated decently, to have a chance at success, to not be discriminated against or assaulted by police or have to face anything that the poor, minorities, women face. It is a right. Everyone has the right to be treated the way straight rich white men are and have been for centuries and using the word "privilege" conjures up this notion that they are getting something they do not deserve: rather, they should be viewed as the model, the goal, they are getting something that we all deserve to have as well alongside them.
  - jnbiche 9y ago
    There's a good reason many of us dislike current usage of word "privilege", and to your credit, you avoided it. Lots of times the word "white privilege" is thrown around by relatively well-off people in urban areas, and that usage is extremely hurtful and frankly stunning if you're a poor white person living in a small town in say, W. Virginia. You work multiple minimum wage jobs and still barely scrap by, watch friends and family succumb to desperation and opiates, and look around your town as it crumbles in neglect. And you don't feel like you're very "privileged" in spite of being white. The term is particularly bewildering to rural and small town poor whites when it's tossed out by a 20-something-year old professional in some big city who's making a $200,000/year salary, or by a trust-fund kid protesting in a university where tuition costs more money a semester than your whole extended family makes in a year. I realize that many people who use the term "white privilege" may not be targeting such people with the term (although many clearly are). However, when the only qualifier someone uses is "white", it's hard to draw that conclusion. Again, to your credit, you used the term "straight rich white men". But most people fail to make this distinction. I also strongly agree with your final paragraph. What we call "privilege" is something that all people should have. Instead of working to destroy privilege, we should work to ensure that all people have that same privilege.
    - vostok 9y ago
      I think white privilege is in contrast to being not white. Statistically, you can think of it as a, for example, 1% effect that gets added to another 1% effect that gets added to another 1% effect and so on. Add enough of these effects and you have a pretty big impact. Even accounting for the racial makeup of those states, I know far more white people than non-white people from poor states who are now making great money.
    - Retric 9y ago
      Being poor and white is still an advantage over poor and Latino/Black. Look at conviction rates at criminal trials for example. Now, it's not the kind of advantage that feels meaningful, but it really adds up over a lifetime. Even +/- 1% sales can make or break a small business for example.
- mieseratte 9y ago
  > it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances That's quite literally what it is. I'm not particularly Christian, but at least it doesn't make me pay for the sins of the father unlike whatever this new orthodoxy is.
  - to3m 9y ago
    What about original sin?
  - zbentley 9y ago
    Some people use it as a shaming device, which is rarely constructive. Many, many others simply use it as a means of gaining a better (more compassionate) ethical understanding of the world. Unless you subscribe to a Rand-ish "altruism = bad" ideology, it's perfectly possible to understand contextual factors that you benefit from, understand that others do not, and--even if you don't actively spend resources to improve that system--at least keep its existence in mind when interacting with others and understanding the world. None of that requires you to feel shame. It's like going up to a random person at an international airport: knowledge of the existence of other languages means you don't automatically assume that person speaks English. You don't have to be ashamed of speaking English, or learn their language, but knowing why they might not understand what you say to them can sure help you avoid being an ass.
bigmanwalter 9y ago
The difference is that others' lack of access to the Louvre or the beach isn't preventing them from feeding their families. To a degree, we should feel bad for having access to capital when there are far greater needs for this capital elsewhere. Most of us don't have any real power to change the situation unfortunately. But it is definitely something to be conscious of and you should reflect on what you can do to help turn the tide for those less fortunate.
- d0lph 9y ago
  How bad should I feel exactly? Is this equivalent to murder? Had we foregone some luxury many could be saved from starvation. I don't even really disagree, but the weight of the burden you assume responsibility over is very great. Why not devote your entire life to helping others if you are responsible for them, consume no luxuries, or anything but the most basic of needs. I'm sure you could save thousands.
  - bigmanwalter 9y ago
    That is my end goal. My best chance at having a lasting impact on society and this world requires me to first accumulate more capital before I can help. If I spend everything helping others now, then I won't have done all that much, and chances are it won't be a lasting change. It is important to be aware of your place in society. I am a 28 year old white male with only a handful of years of professional experience. I am benefiting from the past and present exploitation of others. But within this privileged class I am not so high up on the totem pole. By working my way up the totem pole, and always looking for ways to help, I will find myself in a position to make a real impact. And if not myself, then hopefully my children. It makes sense to enjoy your prosperity to the extent that it allows you to continue progressing toward this goal. In order to climb the totem pole, you have to spend money on luxuries. You have to wear expensive suits and go to exclusive parties. At the same time, there are always things you can do to help right now. For example, I tip service workers well as they need the money more than I do. I give change to beggars and those who find themselves in tough spots. I also make an effort to spread the perspectives of those less privileged than myself as I've found that straight white males pay more attention to other straight white males.
whytaka 9y ago
> Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? If you actively promote or passively allow politicians and legislation that bars other people from having a shot at earning those things themselves, then yes.
- drharby 9y ago
  Can't activelt promote legislation in a dictatorship
- sloppycee 9y ago
  > bars other people from having a shot at earning those things themselves Restricting immigration doesn't 'bar' people from making their own country better... Have you never visited a place that has had it's beauty or charm ruined by the sheer number of visitors it receives?

d0lph 9y ago

This is why people don't like the concept of privilege, it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances.

wfo 9y ago
If people don't like the concept, they don't really understand it. The way the word is often used and even the word itself, absolutely that ruffles some feathers and rightly so. They do studies, if people are given massive advantages (e.g. rolling two dice instead of one in monopoly and starting with double the cash) that are obvious and explicit, people will still believe they deserved to win, they earned their victory. Recognizing a lot of your success is because of dumb luck (yes you worked hard, but millions of others worked just as hard or harder and weren't lucky) is a good way to stay humble, and to remind yourself to stop pretending you "deserve" what you have -- we all live in a fundamentally (intentionally) unjust economic system where "desert" has no meaning but we try to superimpose it on our lives because of a need to believe things are fair. Privilege is a word that can be a good way to remember that. It can also be used as a rhetorical weapon to bludgeon people. The word itself is terrible and I hate it: it is not a "privilege" in my view to be treated decently, to have a chance at success, to not be discriminated against or assaulted by police or have to face anything that the poor, minorities, women face. It is a right. Everyone has the right to be treated the way straight rich white men are and have been for centuries and using the word "privilege" conjures up this notion that they are getting something they do not deserve: rather, they should be viewed as the model, the goal, they are getting something that we all deserve to have as well alongside them.
- jnbiche 9y ago
  There's a good reason many of us dislike current usage of word "privilege", and to your credit, you avoided it. Lots of times the word "white privilege" is thrown around by relatively well-off people in urban areas, and that usage is extremely hurtful and frankly stunning if you're a poor white person living in a small town in say, W. Virginia. You work multiple minimum wage jobs and still barely scrap by, watch friends and family succumb to desperation and opiates, and look around your town as it crumbles in neglect. And you don't feel like you're very "privileged" in spite of being white. The term is particularly bewildering to rural and small town poor whites when it's tossed out by a 20-something-year old professional in some big city who's making a $200,000/year salary, or by a trust-fund kid protesting in a university where tuition costs more money a semester than your whole extended family makes in a year. I realize that many people who use the term "white privilege" may not be targeting such people with the term (although many clearly are). However, when the only qualifier someone uses is "white", it's hard to draw that conclusion. Again, to your credit, you used the term "straight rich white men". But most people fail to make this distinction. I also strongly agree with your final paragraph. What we call "privilege" is something that all people should have. Instead of working to destroy privilege, we should work to ensure that all people have that same privilege.
  - vostok 9y ago
    I think white privilege is in contrast to being not white. Statistically, you can think of it as a, for example, 1% effect that gets added to another 1% effect that gets added to another 1% effect and so on. Add enough of these effects and you have a pretty big impact. Even accounting for the racial makeup of those states, I know far more white people than non-white people from poor states who are now making great money.
  - Retric 9y ago
    Being poor and white is still an advantage over poor and Latino/Black. Look at conviction rates at criminal trials for example. Now, it's not the kind of advantage that feels meaningful, but it really adds up over a lifetime. Even +/- 1% sales can make or break a small business for example.
mieseratte 9y ago
> it seems almost built to shame people for having more due to circumstances That's quite literally what it is. I'm not particularly Christian, but at least it doesn't make me pay for the sins of the father unlike whatever this new orthodoxy is.
- to3m 9y ago
  What about original sin?
- zbentley 9y ago
  Some people use it as a shaming device, which is rarely constructive. Many, many others simply use it as a means of gaining a better (more compassionate) ethical understanding of the world. Unless you subscribe to a Rand-ish "altruism = bad" ideology, it's perfectly possible to understand contextual factors that you benefit from, understand that others do not, and--even if you don't actively spend resources to improve that system--at least keep its existence in mind when interacting with others and understanding the world. None of that requires you to feel shame. It's like going up to a random person at an international airport: knowledge of the existence of other languages means you don't automatically assume that person speaks English. You don't have to be ashamed of speaking English, or learn their language, but knowing why they might not understand what you say to them can sure help you avoid being an ass.

bigmanwalter 9y ago

The difference is that others' lack of access to the Louvre or the beach isn't preventing them from feeding their families. To a degree, we should feel bad for having access to capital when there are far greater needs for this capital elsewhere. Most of us don't have any real power to change the situation unfortunately. But it is definitely something to be conscious of and you should reflect on what you can do to help turn the tide for those less fortunate.

d0lph 9y ago
How bad should I feel exactly? Is this equivalent to murder? Had we foregone some luxury many could be saved from starvation. I don't even really disagree, but the weight of the burden you assume responsibility over is very great. Why not devote your entire life to helping others if you are responsible for them, consume no luxuries, or anything but the most basic of needs. I'm sure you could save thousands.
- bigmanwalter 9y ago
  That is my end goal. My best chance at having a lasting impact on society and this world requires me to first accumulate more capital before I can help. If I spend everything helping others now, then I won't have done all that much, and chances are it won't be a lasting change. It is important to be aware of your place in society. I am a 28 year old white male with only a handful of years of professional experience. I am benefiting from the past and present exploitation of others. But within this privileged class I am not so high up on the totem pole. By working my way up the totem pole, and always looking for ways to help, I will find myself in a position to make a real impact. And if not myself, then hopefully my children. It makes sense to enjoy your prosperity to the extent that it allows you to continue progressing toward this goal. In order to climb the totem pole, you have to spend money on luxuries. You have to wear expensive suits and go to exclusive parties. At the same time, there are always things you can do to help right now. For example, I tip service workers well as they need the money more than I do. I give change to beggars and those who find themselves in tough spots. I also make an effort to spread the perspectives of those less privileged than myself as I've found that straight white males pay more attention to other straight white males.

whytaka 9y ago

> Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? If you actively promote or passively allow politicians and legislation that bars other people from having a shot at earning those things themselves, then yes.

drharby 9y ago
Can't activelt promote legislation in a dictatorship
sloppycee 9y ago
> bars other people from having a shot at earning those things themselves Restricting immigration doesn't 'bar' people from making their own country better... Have you never visited a place that has had it's beauty or charm ruined by the sheer number of visitors it receives?