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Tbt, I haven't seen that much evidence that correlates developer ability with salary. For example, developers living in the Silicon Valley are paid the most. No

Tbt, I haven't seen that much evidence that correlates developer ability with salary. For example, developers living in the Silicon Valley are paid the most. Not because they are the best, but because they are living in the Silicon Valley. Geographical factors play a much bigger role in compensation than developer ability.

vemv 9y ago
But that 'greater' SV salary for a junior developer can give you less purchasing power than a 'lower' salary for a senior somewhere in Europe, due to cost of living. Granted, money is 'absolute' if you use it to e.g travel around the world, but most people don't do that. In general money is 'relative' to one's environment.
- arximboldi 9y ago
  Not really. I did the math in the past because I seriously considered moving to the US cuz I got an offer there. In my estimates, you would end up spending the same % of your salary in surviving, but of course the remaining let's say 30%, is simply a lot. Also a lot of things are not really that expensive (most things that are not housing, or maybe eating out.) And when you get out of the Junior level, I think the difference between SV and Europe becomes abysmal. Also, "Europe" means many things. I am talking about Berlin here. I also know other places, like Madrid, where you just simply earn pennies in comparison so the difference becomes even higher (Madrid is more expensive than Berlin, earn less) I still decided to stay here though (because of quality of living, work culture, music and partying, politics).
  - ddorian43 9y ago
    Get a remote US job ? Harder since you compete with many people but doable.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - tasuki 9y ago
      Most US-based companies are vary of hiring remotely from Europe. As a worker, I'm not sure I'd want to work from 4pm till midnight. The timezone difference makes collaboration difficult. South America seems to be in a much better position here. Obviously, there are also US-based companies with globally distributed remote workforce, but those are a minority.
      - ddorian43 9y ago
        Yeah, but still many with "work on your own timezone and just meeting at 4pm".
- maccard 9y ago
  Not true. If you're making 120k in SF, after taxes and pay 4k/month on rent, your remaining salary is still greater than most junior engineers gross pay in the UK.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Yes very few developers in London earn as much as the train driver who drives the train the developer catches to work (60k for a 4 day week 80k per year after OT )
  - vemv 9y ago
    I was comparing Junior USA vs. Senior Europe
barrkel 9y ago
Have you investigated the correlation between developer location and developer ability? Do you think developers who are very good want to work with the best, thinking the best are in SV, then move to SV? Or perhaps they think they'll get the best return on their effort if they're working on software with big impact, and software with the biggest consumer impact is mostly written in SV?
- riskable 9y ago
  This is highly dependent on personality. As an anecdote, I know a developer that does not like working with "the best" because they make him look bad (even though he's not a terrible developer). Given, he works at a company with stack ranking so I guess that company is self-selecting for developers like him.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    Relevant to your username - people who don't challenge themselves are self-limiting. To grow, you need to go outside your comfort zone, you need to take some risks. And "not terrible" certainly doesn't sound like top 1-5% material.
- bjourne 9y ago
  I didn't know the United States had unrestricted immigration. :) You're probably right that Silicon Valley developers on average are a little bit sharper than most everyone else. But not by that much. People have other priorities than getting the best colleagues, such as living close to family and in places that feel like home.
  - barrkel 9y ago
    > People have other priorities than getting the best colleagues, such as living close to family and in places that feel like home. Yes: people who don't prioritize excellence in development. And it does require compromises in your life choices. You generally need to move to where the most interesting jobs are, where the cutting edge tech is being developed. It's a virtuous cycle: SV attracts the next generation of high quality developers because it's the place that already has the highest concentration of good developers. > I didn't know the United States had unrestricted immigration. FWIW, even though I got my H-1B visa, I stayed in London. It would definitely have been a better career move to follow through and emigrate. I have zero doubt it has cost me in career prospects and quality of opportunities. Living in London is already a compromise in my quality of life.

vemv 9y ago

But that 'greater' SV salary for a junior developer can give you less purchasing power than a 'lower' salary for a senior somewhere in Europe, due to cost of living. Granted, money is 'absolute' if you use it to e.g travel around the world, but most people don't do that. In general money is 'relative' to one's environment.

arximboldi 9y ago
Not really. I did the math in the past because I seriously considered moving to the US cuz I got an offer there. In my estimates, you would end up spending the same % of your salary in surviving, but of course the remaining let's say 30%, is simply a lot. Also a lot of things are not really that expensive (most things that are not housing, or maybe eating out.) And when you get out of the Junior level, I think the difference between SV and Europe becomes abysmal. Also, "Europe" means many things. I am talking about Berlin here. I also know other places, like Madrid, where you just simply earn pennies in comparison so the difference becomes even higher (Madrid is more expensive than Berlin, earn less) I still decided to stay here though (because of quality of living, work culture, music and partying, politics).
- ddorian43 9y ago
  Get a remote US job ? Harder since you compete with many people but doable.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - tasuki 9y ago
    Most US-based companies are vary of hiring remotely from Europe. As a worker, I'm not sure I'd want to work from 4pm till midnight. The timezone difference makes collaboration difficult. South America seems to be in a much better position here. Obviously, there are also US-based companies with globally distributed remote workforce, but those are a minority.
    - ddorian43 9y ago
      Yeah, but still many with "work on your own timezone and just meeting at 4pm".
maccard 9y ago
Not true. If you're making 120k in SF, after taxes and pay 4k/month on rent, your remaining salary is still greater than most junior engineers gross pay in the UK.
- walshemj 9y ago
  Yes very few developers in London earn as much as the train driver who drives the train the developer catches to work (60k for a 4 day week 80k per year after OT )
- vemv 9y ago
  I was comparing Junior USA vs. Senior Europe

barrkel 9y ago

Have you investigated the correlation between developer location and developer ability? Do you think developers who are very good want to work with the best, thinking the best are in SV, then move to SV? Or perhaps they think they'll get the best return on their effort if they're working on software with big impact, and software with the biggest consumer impact is mostly written in SV?

riskable 9y ago
This is highly dependent on personality. As an anecdote, I know a developer that does not like working with "the best" because they make him look bad (even though he's not a terrible developer). Given, he works at a company with stack ranking so I guess that company is self-selecting for developers like him.
- barrkel 9y ago
  Relevant to your username - people who don't challenge themselves are self-limiting. To grow, you need to go outside your comfort zone, you need to take some risks. And "not terrible" certainly doesn't sound like top 1-5% material.
bjourne 9y ago
I didn't know the United States had unrestricted immigration. :) You're probably right that Silicon Valley developers on average are a little bit sharper than most everyone else. But not by that much. People have other priorities than getting the best colleagues, such as living close to family and in places that feel like home.
- barrkel 9y ago
  > People have other priorities than getting the best colleagues, such as living close to family and in places that feel like home. Yes: people who don't prioritize excellence in development. And it does require compromises in your life choices. You generally need to move to where the most interesting jobs are, where the cutting edge tech is being developed. It's a virtuous cycle: SV attracts the next generation of high quality developers because it's the place that already has the highest concentration of good developers. > I didn't know the United States had unrestricted immigration. FWIW, even though I got my H-1B visa, I stayed in London. It would definitely have been a better career move to follow through and emigrate. I have zero doubt it has cost me in career prospects and quality of opportunities. Living in London is already a compromise in my quality of life.