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I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who ca

I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could. Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.

expertentipp 9y ago
Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet to meet in my life.
- gurkendoktor 9y ago
  Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor. Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.
  - ddorian43 9y ago
    Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)
    - dx034 9y ago
      Probably 250/month for health insurance plus 20% pension contribution and few unemployment benefits.
      - ddorian43 9y ago
        Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. You can always find a job. Maybe unable-to-work (like accidents etc) insurance.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        > Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. That's what the person at the (un)employment office said once to me. If you know how to count, count on yourself because most of the insurance contributions simply fall into a black hole.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        "Assuming good programmers + assuming you have certain logical thinking skills outside of programming, like, say, don't live paycheck-to-paycheck and credit-lifestyle".. I just stay out of work until I find a better one with my savings. Worst case I find shitty work until better work.
        Clubber 9y ago
        I would agree with you, but I lived through the dot bomb / 9-11. There are times when companies, collectively, decide to hold off on hiring for a few quarters while doing massive layoffs. Thats when the market gets flooded. It's hard to imagine today, but it sure did happen.
        ryandrake 9y ago
        Sounds like you’ve never experienced a tech downturn yet. Having been through two (and there are folks on this forum who have been through more) I can tell you with great certainty that you are wrong. I have been close to broke twice and am eternally grateful for what little safety net actually exists in the US.
  - badpun 9y ago
    > Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Yup, I know some guys contracting in Germany at 100 EUR/h. I myself received an offer (not in Germany, but in neighbouring country) at 120 EUR/h. The EU contracting market looks pretty healthy to me.

expertentipp 9y ago

Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet to meet in my life.

gurkendoktor 9y ago
Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor. Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.
- ddorian43 9y ago
  Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)
  - dx034 9y ago
    Probably 250/month for health insurance plus 20% pension contribution and few unemployment benefits.
    - ddorian43 9y ago
      Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. You can always find a job. Maybe unable-to-work (like accidents etc) insurance.
      - expertentipp 9y ago
        > Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. That's what the person at the (un)employment office said once to me. If you know how to count, count on yourself because most of the insurance contributions simply fall into a black hole.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        "Assuming good programmers + assuming you have certain logical thinking skills outside of programming, like, say, don't live paycheck-to-paycheck and credit-lifestyle".. I just stay out of work until I find a better one with my savings. Worst case I find shitty work until better work.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        I would agree with you, but I lived through the dot bomb / 9-11. There are times when companies, collectively, decide to hold off on hiring for a few quarters while doing massive layoffs. Thats when the market gets flooded. It's hard to imagine today, but it sure did happen.
      - ryandrake 9y ago
        Sounds like you’ve never experienced a tech downturn yet. Having been through two (and there are folks on this forum who have been through more) I can tell you with great certainty that you are wrong. I have been close to broke twice and am eternally grateful for what little safety net actually exists in the US.
- badpun 9y ago
  > Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Yup, I know some guys contracting in Germany at 100 EUR/h. I myself received an offer (not in Germany, but in neighbouring country) at 120 EUR/h. The EU contracting market looks pretty healthy to me.