6 ms·

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

meuk 9y ago
This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for. On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.
- josephagoss 9y ago
  What did you study?
aidenn0 9y ago
In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension. IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.
- foo232323 9y ago
  That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)
  - watwut 9y ago
    And you dont have college debt and your kids will be able to study at college without debt.
    - Kephael 9y ago
      College is inexpensive in the US. Even top privates are affordable if you choose an appropriate career such as software engineering at a top company, management consulting, investment banking, medicine, or big law. You don't spend 50k/yr at a top private school to be a school teacher unless your family is already very wealthy. Paying $30k/yr at even a top state school is not a good idea to enter low paying career fields. Most people major in fields that are an extension of general high school studies, these majors are traps and should not be offered as they do not provide additional earnings and only serve as a four to six year timeout from the labor force as well an employment program for professors. I have multiple degrees from US schools and zero debt.
      - aidenn0 9y ago
        $56k in tuition, fees, and books to graduate from my alma-mater in-state at today's rates[1]. Tuition nearly tripled from 2000 to 2012 and then they froze tuition by reducing the number of slots for in-state students (thus raising the average tuition charged without changing the sticker price). Also, most public schools will not hire teachers without a 4-year degree, so saying that those going into low-earning fields like teaching ought-not get a degree is questionable at best. Hiring credentials is an arms race, so if everyone else is getting a degree you're going to have a bad time if you don't -- even for fiends in which no degree is logically required. 1: http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees.php http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees....
  - mcmacintosh 9y ago
    would you have any advice for new graduate entering the market? where to look for and how when searching for jobs?
    - 9y ago
tatami 9y ago
6k is far above anything I have heard of yet. The boni sound like a big company, is this a software or industrial one?
- ju-st 9y ago
  6k is even above IG Metall pay schemes, you will never get 6k in Germany 3years after graduation. I call bullshit. It may be possible if you have a PhD or for some not engineering related reason are rising ranks very fast.
  - dx034 9y ago
    I know a few people across different CS disciplines in Germany and none of them has IG (i.e. union) based wages. €72k a year is realistic with 3y experience in southern Germany or one of the big cities. You can start at 50k if you look around a bit after Uni, no PhD needed. The step to 62k is then easily done by changing companies once after 2/3 years. That sector has seen a lot of wage inflation in recent years.
  - brational 9y ago
    That's absurd I have multiple german friends >70k euro + all the other benefits. All stem yes but only 1 is a phd. Frankfurt, Berlin, and Stuttgart too so not just 1 isolated city.
    - ju-st 9y ago
      6k base means 80k all-in/year which is the highest union level (e.g. IG metall EG17 in Baden-Wurttemberg). You can reach this level only on a specialist level (PhD) position, with very senior >> 3 years experience or as a manager.
      - foo232323 9y ago
        It actually is a igm contract. Base salary + "freiwillige Leistungszulage". Also I haven't had significantly less in my last job (in the last position there). Also a lot of friends (engineers/Maschinenbau mostly) earn (at least) the same. All at around 80k (with a 40h work week) all in my age (i.e. around 3-5 years out of university). And yes, bigger companies.
ivanche 9y ago
6000EUR or 6000USD? If it is EUR then I can only say very well done! Can you please give us some subtle hint about company name?
- foo232323 9y ago
  EUR. Large industrial manufacturer. But as stated above, other friends working for Siemens, Bosch, BMW and the like don't earn less.

meuk 9y ago

This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for. On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.

josephagoss 9y ago
What did you study?

aidenn0 9y ago

In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension. IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.

foo232323 9y ago
That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)
- watwut 9y ago
  And you dont have college debt and your kids will be able to study at college without debt.
  - Kephael 9y ago
    College is inexpensive in the US. Even top privates are affordable if you choose an appropriate career such as software engineering at a top company, management consulting, investment banking, medicine, or big law. You don't spend 50k/yr at a top private school to be a school teacher unless your family is already very wealthy. Paying $30k/yr at even a top state school is not a good idea to enter low paying career fields. Most people major in fields that are an extension of general high school studies, these majors are traps and should not be offered as they do not provide additional earnings and only serve as a four to six year timeout from the labor force as well an employment program for professors. I have multiple degrees from US schools and zero debt.
    - aidenn0 9y ago
      $56k in tuition, fees, and books to graduate from my alma-mater in-state at today's rates[1]. Tuition nearly tripled from 2000 to 2012 and then they froze tuition by reducing the number of slots for in-state students (thus raising the average tuition charged without changing the sticker price). Also, most public schools will not hire teachers without a 4-year degree, so saying that those going into low-earning fields like teaching ought-not get a degree is questionable at best. Hiring credentials is an arms race, so if everyone else is getting a degree you're going to have a bad time if you don't -- even for fiends in which no degree is logically required. 1: http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees.php http://www.admissions.purdue.edu/costsandfinaid/tuitionfees....
- mcmacintosh 9y ago
  would you have any advice for new graduate entering the market? where to look for and how when searching for jobs?
  - 9y ago

tatami 9y ago

6k is far above anything I have heard of yet. The boni sound like a big company, is this a software or industrial one?

ju-st 9y ago
6k is even above IG Metall pay schemes, you will never get 6k in Germany 3years after graduation. I call bullshit. It may be possible if you have a PhD or for some not engineering related reason are rising ranks very fast.
- dx034 9y ago
  I know a few people across different CS disciplines in Germany and none of them has IG (i.e. union) based wages. €72k a year is realistic with 3y experience in southern Germany or one of the big cities. You can start at 50k if you look around a bit after Uni, no PhD needed. The step to 62k is then easily done by changing companies once after 2/3 years. That sector has seen a lot of wage inflation in recent years.
- brational 9y ago
  That's absurd I have multiple german friends >70k euro + all the other benefits. All stem yes but only 1 is a phd. Frankfurt, Berlin, and Stuttgart too so not just 1 isolated city.
  - ju-st 9y ago
    6k base means 80k all-in/year which is the highest union level (e.g. IG metall EG17 in Baden-Wurttemberg). You can reach this level only on a specialist level (PhD) position, with very senior >> 3 years experience or as a manager.
    - foo232323 9y ago
      It actually is a igm contract. Base salary + "freiwillige Leistungszulage". Also I haven't had significantly less in my last job (in the last position there). Also a lot of friends (engineers/Maschinenbau mostly) earn (at least) the same. All at around 80k (with a 40h work week) all in my age (i.e. around 3-5 years out of university). And yes, bigger companies.

ivanche 9y ago

6000EUR or 6000USD? If it is EUR then I can only say very well done! Can you please give us some subtle hint about company name?

foo232323 9y ago
EUR. Large industrial manufacturer. But as stated above, other friends working for Siemens, Bosch, BMW and the like don't earn less.