7 ms·

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA. I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have tw

by meuk 9y ago

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA. I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern-European countries.

expertentipp 9y ago
Most of the developer salaries in EU would be below the scale in the bar chart "Programmers in 2015".
- gurkendoktor 9y ago
  I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could. Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet to meet in my life.
    - gurkendoktor 9y ago
      Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor. Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.
      - ddorian43 9y ago
        Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)
        dx034 9y ago
        Probably 250/month for health insurance plus 20% pension contribution and few unemployment benefits.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. You can always find a job. Maybe unable-to-work (like accidents etc) insurance.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        > Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. That's what the person at the (un)employment office said once to me. If you know how to count, count on yourself because most of the insurance contributions simply fall into a black hole.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        "Assuming good programmers + assuming you have certain logical thinking skills outside of programming, like, say, don't live paycheck-to-paycheck and credit-lifestyle".. I just stay out of work until I find a better one with my savings. Worst case I find shitty work until better work.
        Clubber 9y ago
        I would agree with you, but I lived through the dot bomb / 9-11. There are times when companies, collectively, decide to hold off on hiring for a few quarters while doing massive layoffs. Thats when the market gets flooded. It's hard to imagine today, but it sure did happen.
        9y ago
foo232323 9y ago
Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.
- meuk 9y ago
  This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for. On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.
  - josephagoss 9y ago
    What did you study?
- aidenn0 9y ago
  In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension. IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.
  - foo232323 9y ago
    That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)
    - 9y ago
a_imho 9y ago
Granted there are different shades of outsourcing/remote work, compensations are only decent in the context of local market rates but in no way they are proportional to the work being done. It is only fair due to lack of regulation in the space of international work. Consider how basecamp works for example https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d04f4f194b https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d... https://www.wageunion.eu/ https://www.wageunion.eu/
sheepmullet 9y ago
> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees What does that have to do with what you should be paid? My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter. I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and be operating as a senior.
- meuk 9y ago
  > What does that have to do with what you should be paid? I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income. > I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. I think so too. At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12. The main difference is that I had significantly more enthusiasm and energy back then. I did learn a lot during my study, but it is absolutely not required for most of the jobs. Yet, it is required to have at least an undergraduate degree for practically all jobs. There are lots of improvements possible to this system if you ask me.
  - ryandrake 9y ago
    I haven’t in my life seen a programming job that requires skills that are only available through university. The only employers (USA) that I’ve seen even care about or ask about degrees are the ones that practice “alumni nepotism” (we only hire Stanford grads, etc.). Nobody else gives a crap.
  - sheepmullet 9y ago
    > I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income. > At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12 Given the second comment I'm surprised that you have that expectation and I think it's heavily influenced by your culture. In the states we don't care about effort at all. We care about outcome. I think this leads to a huge number of efficiency gains.
xya3453 9y ago
Europe does not value software or developers anywhere near the levels the US does. Other developed economies e.g, Australia, Canada and Singapore are closer to the US but still trail behind.
- myth_drannon 9y ago
  In Canada developers are valued for the same reason doctors are valued. If the pay is not good we can just move south of the border. In Europe you don't have that option and actually you always have the threat the company will just hire people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity.
  - expertentipp 9y ago
    > people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity. We are such a cheap whores it hurts each time I look for a job in my home region. Sentenced for emigration.

by meuk 9y ago

expertentipp 9y ago

Most of the developer salaries in EU would be below the scale in the bar chart "Programmers in 2015".

gurkendoktor 9y ago
I'm not familiar with the larger EU market, but I would guess that German IT salaries skew low as well - and yet I regularly meet freelancers/contractors who can ask for more compensation than most traditional employees ever could. Collecting that data and adjusting for the fact that contractors have to deal with more taxes and insurance, but less restrictions about vacations, seems impossible.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  Being contractor in Germany one still pays the social contributions the same as a person on employment contract, it's hardly the lightweight variant. Contractor in large business in Germany is at the complete end of the development chain (hourly rates 30-80 EUR/h). Have some super old system in obscure technology/stack? Outsource it to PL/CZ/RO/UK. The super high earning rockstar contractors are some unicorns I'm yet to meet in my life.
  - gurkendoktor 9y ago
    Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it just shifts the burden to the contractor. Thankfully 80 EUR/h is not the upper limit if you can cut out the middleman. Speaking of which, I've heard third-hand horror stories of Polish SAP contractors where the middleman(!) made 65 EUR/h, which was probably more than half of the client paid - ouch.
    - ddorian43 9y ago
      Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)
      - dx034 9y ago
        Probably 250/month for health insurance plus 20% pension contribution and few unemployment benefits.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. You can always find a job. Maybe unable-to-work (like accidents etc) insurance.
        expertentipp 9y ago
        > Programmers don't need unemployment benefits. That's what the person at the (un)employment office said once to me. If you know how to count, count on yourself because most of the insurance contributions simply fall into a black hole.
        ddorian43 9y ago
        "Assuming good programmers + assuming you have certain logical thinking skills outside of programming, like, say, don't live paycheck-to-paycheck and credit-lifestyle".. I just stay out of work until I find a better one with my savings. Worst case I find shitty work until better work.
        Clubber 9y ago
        I would agree with you, but I lived through the dot bomb / 9-11. There are times when companies, collectively, decide to hold off on hiring for a few quarters while doing massive layoffs. Thats when the market gets flooded. It's hard to imagine today, but it sure did happen.
        9y ago

foo232323 9y ago

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

meuk 9y ago
This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for. On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.
- josephagoss 9y ago
  What did you study?
aidenn0 9y ago
In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension. IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.
- foo232323 9y ago
  That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)
  - 9y ago

a_imho 9y ago

Granted there are different shades of outsourcing/remote work, compensations are only decent in the context of local market rates but in no way they are proportional to the work being done. It is only fair due to lack of regulation in the space of international work. Consider how basecamp works for example https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d04f4f194b https://m.signalvnoise.com/how-we-pay-people-at-basecamp-f1d... https://www.wageunion.eu/ https://www.wageunion.eu/

sheepmullet 9y ago

> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees What does that have to do with what you should be paid? My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter. I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and be operating as a senior.

meuk 9y ago
> What does that have to do with what you should be paid? I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income. > I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. I think so too. At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12. The main difference is that I had significantly more enthusiasm and energy back then. I did learn a lot during my study, but it is absolutely not required for most of the jobs. Yet, it is required to have at least an undergraduate degree for practically all jobs. There are lots of improvements possible to this system if you ask me.
- ryandrake 9y ago
  I haven’t in my life seen a programming job that requires skills that are only available through university. The only employers (USA) that I’ve seen even care about or ask about degrees are the ones that practice “alumni nepotism” (we only hire Stanford grads, etc.). Nobody else gives a crap.
- sheepmullet 9y ago
  > I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income. > At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12 Given the second comment I'm surprised that you have that expectation and I think it's heavily influenced by your culture. In the states we don't care about effort at all. We care about outcome. I think this leads to a huge number of efficiency gains.

xya3453 9y ago

Europe does not value software or developers anywhere near the levels the US does. Other developed economies e.g, Australia, Canada and Singapore are closer to the US but still trail behind.

myth_drannon 9y ago
In Canada developers are valued for the same reason doctors are valued. If the pay is not good we can just move south of the border. In Europe you don't have that option and actually you always have the threat the company will just hire people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity.
- expertentipp 9y ago
  > people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity. We are such a cheap whores it hurts each time I look for a job in my home region. Sentenced for emigration.