5 ms·

Your situation is ok, because you want to tip. I don't think it is ok to automatically fill out the tipping field.

eropple 9y ago
Then seek out an equivalent service that pays their delivery folks more and doesn't require a tip. We have those here in Boston; Peapod's delivery drivers can be tipped and they've said that it's a major part of their income but Roche Bros.'s drivers have literally laughed and said "we don't accept tips, we actually get paid." (I had a $10 in hand--he turned it down. Peapod has a big huge field on the invoice and charges it to the card. Skinflints.) Or accept that, yes, obligatory tipping is part of the culture, and while you may not like it (I sure don't) it is incumbent upon us to do right by the people whose services we are buying.
- hnaccy 9y ago
  It's not immoral to not tip.
  - eropple 9y ago
    It's immoral not to treat people who are performing services for you fairly and well. If that means tipping, because their employer--who you chose to do business with--doesn't pay them a livable wage, then guess what? You tip. If, at the same time and in no way exclusive to the former, you would like to campaign for better worker rights and wage floors that make tipping unnecessary (or, hell, even illegal), then I will join you in that. You might not like tipping. (Again: I don't.) The person you're rationalizing the stiffing of probably doesn't like having to work for tips. Capitalism kinda sucks and the person-to-person patching is something that more fortunate folks just plain get to do. Sorry.
    - MAGZine 9y ago
      So then what's worse--not using the service because you don't want to tip, or using the service and not tipping?
      - eropple 9y ago
        That becomes a tough one, doesn't it? I'd say that the use of it without tipping incurs a moral burden, as you're giving the employer money and not making it right with the person who (as is true of anyone in a tipped job) depends on you upholding your part of the social contract. You aren't saving the world by tipping--but you're not making it a worse place, and that's not nothing. Similarly, by not using a service that does its employees dirty without making it right, you are pressuring them--if, admittedly, mildly--towards decent behavior. That assumes that you make it very clear why you're doing it, and you totally should, because communication is part of ethical consumerism. (For similar reasons, when Amazon, Uber, etc. recruiters reach out to me, I underline the way they treat their workforce as a major reason as to my disinterest. It's a data point, and only one, but it's what I can do.)
        AstralStorm 9y ago
        You are actually making the world a worse place too by tipping - not promoting a service with transparency and acceptable terms for all parties involved. This is a second order effect but much more important than first order. (Unless you presume workers cannot reasonably switch companies which means that everyone is already screwed and serious antimonopoly steps should be taken.) If you were not informed, then there is no moral weight for not tipping either.
    - felipelemos 9y ago
      I find strange how you call him immoral for not tip while is the employer who do not pay them a liveable wage.
      - eropple 9y ago
        I don't know how to put it nicer than this: do you think that was not implied?
      - TheDong 9y ago
        They are both immoral. In a situation with 3 parties, there can be any number of immoral people from 0 to about 9 billion, so I don't know why you immediately assume that because the commenter is immoral that doesn't mean the company isn't also behaving immorally.
        AstralStorm 9y ago
        Specifically, the company is providing a service which depends on charity of the people receiving it to continue. Remember that charity is supposed to be voluntary. This fact is not documented anywhere. "Customary" is code word for non transparent and exploitative. If the company wants to incentive good quality of service, they can do so explicitly with direct ratings instead of some unclear way of tips.
    - Angostura 9y ago
      >It's immoral not to treat people who are performing services for you fairly and well. If that means tipping, because their employer--who you chose to do business with--doesn't pay them a livable wage, It’s immoral to shop somewhere that doesn’t pay proper wages. Employees should not be dependent on your charity because a company decides to save on its tax and wage bill. Don’t reward companies that do this. Don’t promote a race to the bottom.
      - gambiting 9y ago
        Exactly. Otherwise you could make the same argument about everything - "it's not immoral to buy clothes produced by children in a sweatshop in vietnam, because those children rely on a source of income to survive!". It's exactly the same as saying that tipping is not immoral because service people depend on it.
        RepressedEmu 9y ago
        I would think that an adult in the first world with a car has a lot more autonomy than a child in Vietnam though.
- lmm 9y ago
  Or warn people that Amazon is adopting this poor practice, in a public, visible way, in order to put pressure on them to change?

Then seek out an equivalent service that pays their delivery folks more and doesn't require a tip. We have those here in Boston; Peapod's delivery drivers can be tipped and they've said that it's a major part of their income but Roche Bros.'s drivers have literally laughed and said "we don't accept tips, we actually get paid." (I had a $10 in hand--he turned it down. Peapod has a big huge field on the invoice and charges it to the card. Skinflints.) Or accept that, yes, obligatory tipping is part of the culture, and while you may not like it (I sure don't) it is incumbent upon us to do right by the people whose services we are buying.

hnaccy 9y ago
It's not immoral to not tip.
- eropple 9y ago
  It's immoral not to treat people who are performing services for you fairly and well. If that means tipping, because their employer--who you chose to do business with--doesn't pay them a livable wage, then guess what? You tip. If, at the same time and in no way exclusive to the former, you would like to campaign for better worker rights and wage floors that make tipping unnecessary (or, hell, even illegal), then I will join you in that. You might not like tipping. (Again: I don't.) The person you're rationalizing the stiffing of probably doesn't like having to work for tips. Capitalism kinda sucks and the person-to-person patching is something that more fortunate folks just plain get to do. Sorry.
  - MAGZine 9y ago
    So then what's worse--not using the service because you don't want to tip, or using the service and not tipping?
    - eropple 9y ago
      That becomes a tough one, doesn't it? I'd say that the use of it without tipping incurs a moral burden, as you're giving the employer money and not making it right with the person who (as is true of anyone in a tipped job) depends on you upholding your part of the social contract. You aren't saving the world by tipping--but you're not making it a worse place, and that's not nothing. Similarly, by not using a service that does its employees dirty without making it right, you are pressuring them--if, admittedly, mildly--towards decent behavior. That assumes that you make it very clear why you're doing it, and you totally should, because communication is part of ethical consumerism. (For similar reasons, when Amazon, Uber, etc. recruiters reach out to me, I underline the way they treat their workforce as a major reason as to my disinterest. It's a data point, and only one, but it's what I can do.)
      - AstralStorm 9y ago
        You are actually making the world a worse place too by tipping - not promoting a service with transparency and acceptable terms for all parties involved. This is a second order effect but much more important than first order. (Unless you presume workers cannot reasonably switch companies which means that everyone is already screwed and serious antimonopoly steps should be taken.) If you were not informed, then there is no moral weight for not tipping either.
  - felipelemos 9y ago
    I find strange how you call him immoral for not tip while is the employer who do not pay them a liveable wage.
    - eropple 9y ago
      I don't know how to put it nicer than this: do you think that was not implied?
    - TheDong 9y ago
      They are both immoral. In a situation with 3 parties, there can be any number of immoral people from 0 to about 9 billion, so I don't know why you immediately assume that because the commenter is immoral that doesn't mean the company isn't also behaving immorally.
      - AstralStorm 9y ago
        Specifically, the company is providing a service which depends on charity of the people receiving it to continue. Remember that charity is supposed to be voluntary. This fact is not documented anywhere. "Customary" is code word for non transparent and exploitative. If the company wants to incentive good quality of service, they can do so explicitly with direct ratings instead of some unclear way of tips.
  - Angostura 9y ago
    >It's immoral not to treat people who are performing services for you fairly and well. If that means tipping, because their employer--who you chose to do business with--doesn't pay them a livable wage, It’s immoral to shop somewhere that doesn’t pay proper wages. Employees should not be dependent on your charity because a company decides to save on its tax and wage bill. Don’t reward companies that do this. Don’t promote a race to the bottom.
    - gambiting 9y ago
      Exactly. Otherwise you could make the same argument about everything - "it's not immoral to buy clothes produced by children in a sweatshop in vietnam, because those children rely on a source of income to survive!". It's exactly the same as saying that tipping is not immoral because service people depend on it.
      - RepressedEmu 9y ago
        I would think that an adult in the first world with a car has a lot more autonomy than a child in Vietnam though.
lmm 9y ago
Or warn people that Amazon is adopting this poor practice, in a public, visible way, in order to put pressure on them to change?