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We won't. Many of the brightest and best paid of us are busily working at places like Google, building ever more powerful surveillance and analysis machinery to

We won't. Many of the brightest and best paid of us are busily working at places like Google, building ever more powerful surveillance and analysis machinery to target ads. Of course it will be used for more than that.

cryoshon 9y ago
speak for yourself. some of us refuse to answer when we are called to serve something we don't believe in-- even if answering the call causes us to miss out on prosperity.
- jancsika 9y ago
  You're not necessarily disagreeing with the parent's first sentence. One can believe we won't "hack" our way out of this problem while also refusing to work for companies developing/leveraging the surveillance infrastructure.
  - mark_edward 9y ago
    Yeah, that's what I meant. The economic and political incentives for this are gigantic. There's no reason not to collect data if you can. Combine that with the lucrative pay for the workers and whatever... It's a bit like trying to convince coal miners to stop working because of global warming, but instead make coal mining a very cushy job with 3x the pay.
- jimmies 9y ago
  Most people would do the same as you do, even people working for Facebook and Google. I have friends who work at Monsanto and are absolutely believing they are doing good for the humanity. Look at Agent Orange by Monsanto, I wouldn't think any scientist who worked on it thought it would be used as the something that made thousands of newborn lives to live in hell. They thought you made a herbicide to help the poor farmers, in reality, the government used it as a defoliant chemical in wars, and tens of years later, the real reality turned out to be deformed children. How do we know what happened to Agent Orange won't happen again with sweet corn, GMO, social profiling, facial recognition, voice profiling, etc? However, if we're afraid to do anything for fear of bad consequences, we could as well do nothing. I don't think that there is any way to know for sure. All we know is that right now, we do see here, a possibility for bad consequences to happen. Real-life situations are not as black and white as a call from Kim Jong Un asking us to nuke the world. We aren't smarter than the guys telling us to use the talents we have to serve their purpose. The only thing I could think of so far is to not depend on their pay or their recognition or personal fame.
  - germinalphrase 9y ago
    I have a family member who was associated with Monsanto and - by extension - the Manhattan Project. It's a fascinating, inspiring, and unsettling part of my family's history. It also reinforces how thoroughly internal narratives are developed to justify actions that may otherwise be against a person's moral code. Further, it reminds me that I can sit here clearheaded and accurately argue that I wouldn't support these companies or their choices - but, then, no one has ever said to me hundreds of thousands are dying in this war. What are you willing to do to stop it?
  - mark_edward 9y ago
    Those are nice analogies, but what is actually confusing about building gigantic data-mining and surveillance infrastructure, like working at FB and Google? At best it's used to manipulate and sell ads, at worst it gets turned over to the secret police.
    - jimmies 9y ago
      Given the work I do at Google and FB doesn't harm other people, then I am doing a very good thing for the world. 1, It makes a lot of money for me, and I'm a happy person 2, I spend the money I earned to buy products and services, contributing to the global economy.
      - mark_edward 9y ago
        Ah, the old, "it's good because I make money off of it", the argument of scoundrels and thieves.
emmelaich 9y ago
Yeah I don't think you can. The only way to resist is to watch the watchers. Keep a camera/phone on you at all times. Distribute secret cameras near Govt buildings.
- mr_spothawk 9y ago
  > Distribute secret cameras near Govt buildings. wat?
  - emmelaich 9y ago
    Ok, doesn't need to be secret. Perhaps better not being secret. It's merely demanding that politicians are subject to the same rules as the general public. Ideally, the press would do this job as in the link below. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10141790/Fury-caught-on-film-as-MEPs-sign-in-and-slope-off.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10141790...
- wallace_f 9y ago
  Is there a good guide you're aware of for personal surveillance--wearing a camera, audio recorder? It's a good idea not just for civic pride, but for personal safety and liability--the same reason drivers use dash cams.
- secfirstmd 9y ago
  You might be interested in a human rights organisation I helped build out of my student house and that now specialises in covert filming for human rights: "Videre: the secretive group on a mission to film human-rights abuses" http://www.wired.co.uk/article/videre http://www.wired.co.uk/article/videre "Hidden Cameras Film Injustice in Dangerous Places" https://www.ted.com/talks/oren_yakobovich_hidden_cameras_that_film_injustice_in_the_world_s_most_dangerous_places https://www.ted.com/talks/oren_yakobovich_hidden_cameras_tha... http://www.videreonline.org/ http://www.videreonline.org/

cryoshon 9y ago

speak for yourself. some of us refuse to answer when we are called to serve something we don't believe in-- even if answering the call causes us to miss out on prosperity.

jancsika 9y ago
You're not necessarily disagreeing with the parent's first sentence. One can believe we won't "hack" our way out of this problem while also refusing to work for companies developing/leveraging the surveillance infrastructure.
- mark_edward 9y ago
  Yeah, that's what I meant. The economic and political incentives for this are gigantic. There's no reason not to collect data if you can. Combine that with the lucrative pay for the workers and whatever... It's a bit like trying to convince coal miners to stop working because of global warming, but instead make coal mining a very cushy job with 3x the pay.
jimmies 9y ago
Most people would do the same as you do, even people working for Facebook and Google. I have friends who work at Monsanto and are absolutely believing they are doing good for the humanity. Look at Agent Orange by Monsanto, I wouldn't think any scientist who worked on it thought it would be used as the something that made thousands of newborn lives to live in hell. They thought you made a herbicide to help the poor farmers, in reality, the government used it as a defoliant chemical in wars, and tens of years later, the real reality turned out to be deformed children. How do we know what happened to Agent Orange won't happen again with sweet corn, GMO, social profiling, facial recognition, voice profiling, etc? However, if we're afraid to do anything for fear of bad consequences, we could as well do nothing. I don't think that there is any way to know for sure. All we know is that right now, we do see here, a possibility for bad consequences to happen. Real-life situations are not as black and white as a call from Kim Jong Un asking us to nuke the world. We aren't smarter than the guys telling us to use the talents we have to serve their purpose. The only thing I could think of so far is to not depend on their pay or their recognition or personal fame.
- germinalphrase 9y ago
  I have a family member who was associated with Monsanto and - by extension - the Manhattan Project. It's a fascinating, inspiring, and unsettling part of my family's history. It also reinforces how thoroughly internal narratives are developed to justify actions that may otherwise be against a person's moral code. Further, it reminds me that I can sit here clearheaded and accurately argue that I wouldn't support these companies or their choices - but, then, no one has ever said to me hundreds of thousands are dying in this war. What are you willing to do to stop it?
- mark_edward 9y ago
  Those are nice analogies, but what is actually confusing about building gigantic data-mining and surveillance infrastructure, like working at FB and Google? At best it's used to manipulate and sell ads, at worst it gets turned over to the secret police.
  - jimmies 9y ago
    Given the work I do at Google and FB doesn't harm other people, then I am doing a very good thing for the world. 1, It makes a lot of money for me, and I'm a happy person 2, I spend the money I earned to buy products and services, contributing to the global economy.
    - mark_edward 9y ago
      Ah, the old, "it's good because I make money off of it", the argument of scoundrels and thieves.

emmelaich 9y ago

Yeah I don't think you can. The only way to resist is to watch the watchers. Keep a camera/phone on you at all times. Distribute secret cameras near Govt buildings.

mr_spothawk 9y ago
> Distribute secret cameras near Govt buildings. wat?
- emmelaich 9y ago
  Ok, doesn't need to be secret. Perhaps better not being secret. It's merely demanding that politicians are subject to the same rules as the general public. Ideally, the press would do this job as in the link below. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10141790/Fury-caught-on-film-as-MEPs-sign-in-and-slope-off.html http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/10141790...
wallace_f 9y ago
Is there a good guide you're aware of for personal surveillance--wearing a camera, audio recorder? It's a good idea not just for civic pride, but for personal safety and liability--the same reason drivers use dash cams.
secfirstmd 9y ago
You might be interested in a human rights organisation I helped build out of my student house and that now specialises in covert filming for human rights: "Videre: the secretive group on a mission to film human-rights abuses" http://www.wired.co.uk/article/videre http://www.wired.co.uk/article/videre "Hidden Cameras Film Injustice in Dangerous Places" https://www.ted.com/talks/oren_yakobovich_hidden_cameras_that_film_injustice_in_the_world_s_most_dangerous_places https://www.ted.com/talks/oren_yakobovich_hidden_cameras_tha... http://www.videreonline.org/ http://www.videreonline.org/