4 ms·

Good luck with enforcement. AirBnB being mostly illegal in NYC hasn’t stopped us from (AFAIR) being the number one source of revenue for them. Nothing seems to

Good luck with enforcement. AirBnB being mostly illegal in NYC hasn’t stopped us from (AFAIR) being the number one source of revenue for them. Nothing seems to deter them. Maybe some city should start looking at what criminal laws might apply (like RICO perhaps).

matte_black 9y ago
Could you go to prison for renting an AirBnB in NYC?
- toomuchtodo 9y ago
  No, but the fines can become punitive to a level it no longer behooves you to continue. First offense: $1000 | Second offense: $5000 | Third offense: $7500 and so on (daily). Disclaimer: Invested in a startup that does AirBnB surveillance/reporting for jurisdictions.
  - JumpCrisscross 9y ago
    What’s the start-up? We have an Airbnb in our building that’s pissing me off.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    Ha! This is the perfect investment for you in particular. Maybe you can find some kind of startup that annoys tech employees in growing cities until they leave :)
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  Highly unlikely that a renter (guest) would be charged with anything. A little less unlikely for an "ordinary" host, but still far-fetched. A little more likely for some kind of AirBnB mogul, especially if he is acquiring (renting or buying) apartments with false documentation or under false pretenses. My hope would be that the company itself and/or its officials would be charged by some ambitious prosecutor for running a business that pretty openly encourages people to commit wire fraud. I have no idea how likely that is, but probably not very likely. American prosecutors don't have the appetite anymore to take on big companies.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Could you go to prison for renting an AirBnB in NYC? It's not a criminal offense, so the punishment is a fine, not prison time. But it's not just renting an AirBNB that's illegal in New York - listing a short-term, whole-apartment rental is illegal. (Short-term, whole-apartment rentals are not legal, and it's illegal to list an illegal rental).
  - bradleyjg 9y ago
    It's not per se a crime. That is, there's no law that says that renting out an apartment on AirBnB is a crime punishable by x. That's not the same thing as saying that doing so doesn't sometimes or always meet the elements of a crime that does exist on the books. For example, 18 U.S.C. § 1343 says: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. Is a host that takes money for renting out an apartment, while knowing that such rental is in violation of the MDL, obtaining money under false pretenses? AirBnB's terms of service, say: 7.2.3 You represent and warrant that any Listing you post and the booking of, or a Guest's stay at, an Accommodation will (i) not breach any agreements you have entered into with any third parties, such as homeowners association, condominium, or other agreements, and (ii) comply with all applicable laws (such as zoning laws), Tax requirements, and other rules and regulations (including having all required permits, licenses and registrations).
tannhauser23 9y ago
Yes, by all means, use a tool designed to fight the mafia and terrorists to criminalize a housing regulation dispute. That makes sense.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- bkor 9y ago
  > a housing regulation dispute That makes it seem like a minor issue. AirBNB is facilitating this. AirBNB must allow the government to check up on local regulations. Limitations on how many days you can rent out your property and seeing how many properties each individual has is something only AirBNB has. It's further a very common thing related to their business. The main revenue source for AirBNB is exactly what governments (local city, etc) want data of. AirBNB has often tried to block this, saying it's should be checked without any effort on their part. It took years of talks for AirBNB to cooperate in e.g. Amsterdam. Fortunately EU is now putting this all into law. If AirBNB is allowing people to easily break local regulations and AirBNB is made aware of that fact they should follow the local regulations. In most industries following local regulations is a common sense thing. There's also sometimes a personal effect of not following regulations. E.g. if someone on a vessel spills 1 liter of oil in the water that person can get a jail sentence for this. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or not. Then for things like AirBNB, Uber, etc completely different rules apply. It makes no sense.
bsder 9y ago
> Nothing seems to deter them. Well, you have a huge city with expensive hotels (the most expensive hotels in Vegas are sometimes cheaper than really average hotels in New York). So, the number of people willing to risk it to make a quick buck is not going to be small. In addition, there is somewhat of a PR problem for NYC. Kicking people out of their apartments, especially in winter, makes for great outrage news stories--especially if you happen to evict some 82-year-old grandma in rent control who is using AirBnB to pay for her meds. Better to simply notify the landlords, like San Francisco does, who are then incentivized to evict the scofflaws.
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  > if you happen to evict some 82-year-old grandma in rent control who is using AirBnB to pay for her meds It's whole apartment rentals that are illegal. Where is grandma living while she is renting out her rent control apartment, that she pays $900/month for, on AirBnB for $300 a night? Maybe in her second, supposedly not primary, home in Florida? In any event, I don't suggest they evict hosts. What I suggest is they go after AirBnB for continuing to accept blatantly illegal listings, like this one for example: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/16148374 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/16148374 While section Section 230 of the CDA is an issue, the fact that AirBnB is taking money from the rental turns this into more than just a third party publisher of information. If Cy Vance wasn't too busy taking campaign donations to look the other way for powerful people, I'm sure he could direct his office to come up with something. Or Berman in SDNY could.

matte_black 9y ago

Could you go to prison for renting an AirBnB in NYC?

toomuchtodo 9y ago
No, but the fines can become punitive to a level it no longer behooves you to continue. First offense: $1000 | Second offense: $5000 | Third offense: $7500 and so on (daily). Disclaimer: Invested in a startup that does AirBnB surveillance/reporting for jurisdictions.
- JumpCrisscross 9y ago
  What’s the start-up? We have an Airbnb in our building that’s pissing me off.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  Ha! This is the perfect investment for you in particular. Maybe you can find some kind of startup that annoys tech employees in growing cities until they leave :)
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
bradleyjg 9y ago
Highly unlikely that a renter (guest) would be charged with anything. A little less unlikely for an "ordinary" host, but still far-fetched. A little more likely for some kind of AirBnB mogul, especially if he is acquiring (renting or buying) apartments with false documentation or under false pretenses. My hope would be that the company itself and/or its officials would be charged by some ambitious prosecutor for running a business that pretty openly encourages people to commit wire fraud. I have no idea how likely that is, but probably not very likely. American prosecutors don't have the appetite anymore to take on big companies.
chimeracoder 9y ago
> Could you go to prison for renting an AirBnB in NYC? It's not a criminal offense, so the punishment is a fine, not prison time. But it's not just renting an AirBNB that's illegal in New York - listing a short-term, whole-apartment rental is illegal. (Short-term, whole-apartment rentals are not legal, and it's illegal to list an illegal rental).
- bradleyjg 9y ago
  It's not per se a crime. That is, there's no law that says that renting out an apartment on AirBnB is a crime punishable by x. That's not the same thing as saying that doing so doesn't sometimes or always meet the elements of a crime that does exist on the books. For example, 18 U.S.C. § 1343 says: Whoever, having devised or intending to devise any scheme or artifice to defraud, or for obtaining money or property by means of false or fraudulent pretenses, representations, or promises, transmits or causes to be transmitted by means of wire, radio, or television communication in interstate or foreign commerce, any writings, signs, signals, pictures, or sounds for the purpose of executing such scheme or artifice, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 20 years, or both. If the violation affects a financial institution, such person shall be fined not more than $1,000,000 or imprisoned not more than 30 years, or both. Is a host that takes money for renting out an apartment, while knowing that such rental is in violation of the MDL, obtaining money under false pretenses? AirBnB's terms of service, say: 7.2.3 You represent and warrant that any Listing you post and the booking of, or a Guest's stay at, an Accommodation will (i) not breach any agreements you have entered into with any third parties, such as homeowners association, condominium, or other agreements, and (ii) comply with all applicable laws (such as zoning laws), Tax requirements, and other rules and regulations (including having all required permits, licenses and registrations).

tannhauser23 9y ago

Yes, by all means, use a tool designed to fight the mafia and terrorists to criminalize a housing regulation dispute. That makes sense.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
bkor 9y ago
> a housing regulation dispute That makes it seem like a minor issue. AirBNB is facilitating this. AirBNB must allow the government to check up on local regulations. Limitations on how many days you can rent out your property and seeing how many properties each individual has is something only AirBNB has. It's further a very common thing related to their business. The main revenue source for AirBNB is exactly what governments (local city, etc) want data of. AirBNB has often tried to block this, saying it's should be checked without any effort on their part. It took years of talks for AirBNB to cooperate in e.g. Amsterdam. Fortunately EU is now putting this all into law. If AirBNB is allowing people to easily break local regulations and AirBNB is made aware of that fact they should follow the local regulations. In most industries following local regulations is a common sense thing. There's also sometimes a personal effect of not following regulations. E.g. if someone on a vessel spills 1 liter of oil in the water that person can get a jail sentence for this. It doesn't matter if it was an accident or not. Then for things like AirBNB, Uber, etc completely different rules apply. It makes no sense.

bsder 9y ago

> Nothing seems to deter them. Well, you have a huge city with expensive hotels (the most expensive hotels in Vegas are sometimes cheaper than really average hotels in New York). So, the number of people willing to risk it to make a quick buck is not going to be small. In addition, there is somewhat of a PR problem for NYC. Kicking people out of their apartments, especially in winter, makes for great outrage news stories--especially if you happen to evict some 82-year-old grandma in rent control who is using AirBnB to pay for her meds. Better to simply notify the landlords, like San Francisco does, who are then incentivized to evict the scofflaws.

bradleyjg 9y ago
> if you happen to evict some 82-year-old grandma in rent control who is using AirBnB to pay for her meds It's whole apartment rentals that are illegal. Where is grandma living while she is renting out her rent control apartment, that she pays $900/month for, on AirBnB for $300 a night? Maybe in her second, supposedly not primary, home in Florida? In any event, I don't suggest they evict hosts. What I suggest is they go after AirBnB for continuing to accept blatantly illegal listings, like this one for example: https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/16148374 https://www.airbnb.com/rooms/16148374 While section Section 230 of the CDA is an issue, the fact that AirBnB is taking money from the rental turns this into more than just a third party publisher of information. If Cy Vance wasn't too busy taking campaign donations to look the other way for powerful people, I'm sure he could direct his office to come up with something. Or Berman in SDNY could.