7 ms·

I'll just comment on the "good pay" aspect: The vast majority of European companies pay programmers significantly less than US companies (even when controlling

by scribu 9y ago

I'll just comment on the "good pay" aspect: The vast majority of European companies pay programmers significantly less than US companies (even when controlling for cost of living). So, your best bet, financially, would be to work for an American company, while being outside of the USA. Most of the giants have several offices in Europe.

charlesdm 9y ago
Your best bet is to work remotely for a SV based company, receiving US compensation. There are a few people I know who do this, and they easily gross €10k+ per month. Or you become a contractor on a day rate, but then you're not really permanently working for the same company.
- troels 9y ago
  Long term contracting is not much different from 'permanent' employment. But it does come with slightly less safety net (e.g. essentially you can be fired at-will)
- eb0la 9y ago
  Contractorship in Europe is very different from one country to another. Not just for laws and regulations; but rates differ a lot, too. In the UK you can easily find contractor gigs for 300-400GBP daily rate. 500 is not uncommon for some roles; whist in Spain 250-300 Eur is the absolute maximum. If interested in contracting check Jobserve, and itjobswatch uk first before setting your own daily rate.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- StavrosK 9y ago
  That is extremely hard to do, though, as those jobs are rather rare. I do agree that it's the absolute best if you can pull it off.
  - tw1010 9y ago
    The fact that they are rare might only mean that few people know and search for it. The probability of getting it conditioned on the fact that you're searching might be a lot higher.
    - StavrosK 9y ago
      I'm saying they're rare conditioned on the fact that you're searching for them.
- Asdfbla 9y ago
  Wouldn't the company have an incentive to pay you European rates for your remote work then?
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Not if you are good at what you do and they are looking for talent. Second, any self respected software developer would probably reject an offer where a company knowingly does this.
- tw1010 9y ago
  Don't you need a visa to work remotely for a SV company from Europe?
  - bdukic 9y ago
    Of course not. I'm not sure why would you even think that.
    - seekingcharlie 9y ago
      Why do you seem so certain of that? I live in Germany, work for an SV company, and a work visa in Germany is absolutely required.
  - bitL 9y ago
    No, there are multiple options. If you are a contractor is one way, or an own Delaware LLC that is used for invoicing, you just need to hire international tax accountant to be good with both US and your-country-of-tax-residence's tax offices.
  - pm90 9y ago
    Visa's are by definition documents providing authorization for (re)entry and specific kinds of work. If you're not inside the country's geographical boundaries, you are not in their jurisdiction and hence don't need a visa. Now, taxes though... that's a different beast.
    - charlesdm 9y ago
      Easy: you invoice from wherever you're based. Exempt from tax in the US, taxed in your home jurisdiction. Expenses tax deductible.
- danesparza 9y ago
  Please forgive my ignorance: What is the 'SV' abbreviation referring to here?
  - bitL 9y ago
    Silicon Valley, area between San Francisco and San Jose in California, USA, North America.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
petters 9y ago
I think this is true. In Stockholm, Google pays engineers much more than native Swedish companies (it seems).
DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
after 20+ years in the game both in APAC and Europe, I have to disagree here. Yes you get a lot of competition on entry level roles. The opportunities for engineers working as experienced consultants is massive in Germany and Switzerland incl some North European markets (not going into these locations due to my lack of experience and what I perceive - a high tax burden). In most places (except Eastern EU) you can easily make EUR >200K/year and never be out of work. You have to register as a freelancer and learn a) what your service is and b) how to invoice that. Though even you don't think about that (at all) and simply hire yourself out to whoever has a gig you probably can charge above €70,-/hrs (for some simple SW development). You have to maintain good relationship with agencies or find your own clients (I started out finding my own clients because all agencies demanded freelance experience regardless of my experience as an "employee", later I worked mainly with agencies to focus on my core skills and not worry about procurement, finally I created my own agency which I ended up regretting :D). Quick start: go to www.gulp.de (sorry in German) and extract every agency who advertises through them, spam these agencies with your CV and let them know you're available within 30 days. Have enough references and if it's your first "gig" know how to avoid the question "do you have any experience as consultant" like the plague. If you register as freelancer remember you have to pay your own taxes and healthcare. A good rule of thumb for how much you should charge: take the avg salary for a full-time/perm role in this domain and double or x2.5 it. You need to be able to live comfortably by working 8 months out of 12 (risk-mgmt: if you are suddenly out of a project - though in all the years this never ever happened to me). You need to deduct your healthcare (in Switzerland / Germany it is very low ~300 upwards for a good plan), social security: put away 30% for retirement. Any expenses (car or costs for transport that includes the leasing rate on your new BMW, Tesla or Porsche) is an expense provided that you use it for work most of the time (talk to an accountant which you would have to anyway to do the taxes for you at year end. costs €600-€800/year). Things to avoid in Germany/Austria: agencies that promise you a full-time gig but contract you out to their clients as a freelancer. You would not believe the sh1t I have seen in this space. The system is called "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" in German (and specific to Germany) which borders on modern slavery. If anyone needs guidance feel free to send me a DM on twitter.
- DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
sampo 9y ago
> European companies pay programmers significantly less than US companies The European system assumes that you don't need to pay healthcare, your children's daycare and education, and pension savings from your salary. It works is you live permanently in Europe. But of course working a bit in Europe while planning to move back to US for raising a family can be a bad deal. Then again, for young Europeans working for a while in the US and then moving back to Europe to settle down can be a great deal.
- herbst 9y ago
  > The European system Thats not a thing. In Switzerland you pay healthcare yourself to a private company as well. As well as most of your pension savings are on a private contract. I am also certain Childcare needs to be paid out of your own pocket in nearly all countries around here. Except you are thinking of "Kindergeld" (Children Money) which adds a little to your household if you have children. You also would profit from all of it while you are here and just cash out (most) of it when you go again, i dont see why this would be a bad deal. TL:DR; You just generalized europe for whatever reason.
  - sampo 9y ago
    You are correct, Switzerland is a bit different than most other European countries.
    - herbst 9y ago
      Its not about Switzerland only tho. The whole laws around social structure, taxes, remote work, are not unified at all within europe. There are countries where your arguments are completely true (Germany for example i would guess) but others already are different enough to make them invalid again (Austria for example has no paid childcare, and healthcare is force deducted from your wage and usually even more expensive than in Switzerland) I just like to enrage about phrases like "european system" :) To avoid triggering phrase nazis like me talking about the "EU" instead of "Europe" often makes it more correct :)
newbear 9y ago
What's jobs in europe pay more? Are considered more valuable/prestigious?
- scribu 9y ago
  I don’t think there’s any kind of software job that’s prestigious by itself. There are a handful of individuals that are famous within their circle, but that’s about it. Regarding salary, a job pays more to the extent that: a) it needs to get done and b) there are fewer people able or willing to do it. Examples: * web development - high demand (every business needs a website), but also high supply (relatively easy to learn) * security - low demand (except after a breach), arguably lower supply (pentesting isn’t everyone’s cup of tea) * machine learning - high demand (at least from startups), low supply (need advanced knowledge of statistics)

by scribu 9y ago

charlesdm 9y ago

Your best bet is to work remotely for a SV based company, receiving US compensation. There are a few people I know who do this, and they easily gross €10k+ per month. Or you become a contractor on a day rate, but then you're not really permanently working for the same company.

troels 9y ago
Long term contracting is not much different from 'permanent' employment. But it does come with slightly less safety net (e.g. essentially you can be fired at-will)
eb0la 9y ago
Contractorship in Europe is very different from one country to another. Not just for laws and regulations; but rates differ a lot, too. In the UK you can easily find contractor gigs for 300-400GBP daily rate. 500 is not uncommon for some roles; whist in Spain 250-300 Eur is the absolute maximum. If interested in contracting check Jobserve, and itjobswatch uk first before setting your own daily rate.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
StavrosK 9y ago
That is extremely hard to do, though, as those jobs are rather rare. I do agree that it's the absolute best if you can pull it off.
- tw1010 9y ago
  The fact that they are rare might only mean that few people know and search for it. The probability of getting it conditioned on the fact that you're searching might be a lot higher.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    I'm saying they're rare conditioned on the fact that you're searching for them.
Asdfbla 9y ago
Wouldn't the company have an incentive to pay you European rates for your remote work then?
- charlesdm 9y ago
  Not if you are good at what you do and they are looking for talent. Second, any self respected software developer would probably reject an offer where a company knowingly does this.
tw1010 9y ago
Don't you need a visa to work remotely for a SV company from Europe?
- bdukic 9y ago
  Of course not. I'm not sure why would you even think that.
  - seekingcharlie 9y ago
    Why do you seem so certain of that? I live in Germany, work for an SV company, and a work visa in Germany is absolutely required.
- bitL 9y ago
  No, there are multiple options. If you are a contractor is one way, or an own Delaware LLC that is used for invoicing, you just need to hire international tax accountant to be good with both US and your-country-of-tax-residence's tax offices.
- pm90 9y ago
  Visa's are by definition documents providing authorization for (re)entry and specific kinds of work. If you're not inside the country's geographical boundaries, you are not in their jurisdiction and hence don't need a visa. Now, taxes though... that's a different beast.
  - charlesdm 9y ago
    Easy: you invoice from wherever you're based. Exempt from tax in the US, taxed in your home jurisdiction. Expenses tax deductible.
danesparza 9y ago
Please forgive my ignorance: What is the 'SV' abbreviation referring to here?
- bitL 9y ago
  Silicon Valley, area between San Francisco and San Jose in California, USA, North America.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

petters 9y ago

I think this is true. In Stockholm, Google pays engineers much more than native Swedish companies (it seems).

DyslexicAtheist 9y ago

after 20+ years in the game both in APAC and Europe, I have to disagree here. Yes you get a lot of competition on entry level roles. The opportunities for engineers working as experienced consultants is massive in Germany and Switzerland incl some North European markets (not going into these locations due to my lack of experience and what I perceive - a high tax burden). In most places (except Eastern EU) you can easily make EUR >200K/year and never be out of work. You have to register as a freelancer and learn a) what your service is and b) how to invoice that. Though even you don't think about that (at all) and simply hire yourself out to whoever has a gig you probably can charge above €70,-/hrs (for some simple SW development). You have to maintain good relationship with agencies or find your own clients (I started out finding my own clients because all agencies demanded freelance experience regardless of my experience as an "employee", later I worked mainly with agencies to focus on my core skills and not worry about procurement, finally I created my own agency which I ended up regretting :D). Quick start: go to www.gulp.de (sorry in German) and extract every agency who advertises through them, spam these agencies with your CV and let them know you're available within 30 days. Have enough references and if it's your first "gig" know how to avoid the question "do you have any experience as consultant" like the plague. If you register as freelancer remember you have to pay your own taxes and healthcare. A good rule of thumb for how much you should charge: take the avg salary for a full-time/perm role in this domain and double or x2.5 it. You need to be able to live comfortably by working 8 months out of 12 (risk-mgmt: if you are suddenly out of a project - though in all the years this never ever happened to me). You need to deduct your healthcare (in Switzerland / Germany it is very low ~300 upwards for a good plan), social security: put away 30% for retirement. Any expenses (car or costs for transport that includes the leasing rate on your new BMW, Tesla or Porsche) is an expense provided that you use it for work most of the time (talk to an accountant which you would have to anyway to do the taxes for you at year end. costs €600-€800/year). Things to avoid in Germany/Austria: agencies that promise you a full-time gig but contract you out to their clients as a freelancer. You would not believe the sh1t I have seen in this space. The system is called "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" in German (and specific to Germany) which borders on modern slavery. If anyone needs guidance feel free to send me a DM on twitter.

DyslexicAtheist 9y ago

sampo 9y ago

> European companies pay programmers significantly less than US companies The European system assumes that you don't need to pay healthcare, your children's daycare and education, and pension savings from your salary. It works is you live permanently in Europe. But of course working a bit in Europe while planning to move back to US for raising a family can be a bad deal. Then again, for young Europeans working for a while in the US and then moving back to Europe to settle down can be a great deal.

herbst 9y ago
> The European system Thats not a thing. In Switzerland you pay healthcare yourself to a private company as well. As well as most of your pension savings are on a private contract. I am also certain Childcare needs to be paid out of your own pocket in nearly all countries around here. Except you are thinking of "Kindergeld" (Children Money) which adds a little to your household if you have children. You also would profit from all of it while you are here and just cash out (most) of it when you go again, i dont see why this would be a bad deal. TL:DR; You just generalized europe for whatever reason.
- sampo 9y ago
  You are correct, Switzerland is a bit different than most other European countries.
  - herbst 9y ago
    Its not about Switzerland only tho. The whole laws around social structure, taxes, remote work, are not unified at all within europe. There are countries where your arguments are completely true (Germany for example i would guess) but others already are different enough to make them invalid again (Austria for example has no paid childcare, and healthcare is force deducted from your wage and usually even more expensive than in Switzerland) I just like to enrage about phrases like "european system" :) To avoid triggering phrase nazis like me talking about the "EU" instead of "Europe" often makes it more correct :)

newbear 9y ago

What's jobs in europe pay more? Are considered more valuable/prestigious?

scribu 9y ago
I don’t think there’s any kind of software job that’s prestigious by itself. There are a handful of individuals that are famous within their circle, but that’s about it. Regarding salary, a job pays more to the extent that: a) it needs to get done and b) there are fewer people able or willing to do it. Examples: * web development - high demand (every business needs a website), but also high supply (relatively easy to learn) * security - low demand (except after a breach), arguably lower supply (pentesting isn’t everyone’s cup of tea) * machine learning - high demand (at least from startups), low supply (need advanced knowledge of statistics)