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DyslexicAtheist 9y ago

after 20+ years in the game both in APAC and Europe, I have to disagree here. Yes you get a lot of competition on entry level roles. The opportunities for engineers working as experienced consultants is massive in Germany and Switzerland incl some North European markets (not going into these locations due to my lack of experience and what I perceive - a high tax burden). In most places (except Eastern EU) you can easily make EUR >200K/year and never be out of work. You have to register as a freelancer and learn a) what your service is and b) how to invoice that. Though even you don't think about that (at all) and simply hire yourself out to whoever has a gig you probably can charge above €70,-/hrs (for some simple SW development). You have to maintain good relationship with agencies or find your own clients (I started out finding my own clients because all agencies demanded freelance experience regardless of my experience as an "employee", later I worked mainly with agencies to focus on my core skills and not worry about procurement, finally I created my own agency which I ended up regretting :D). Quick start: go to www.gulp.de (sorry in German) and extract every agency who advertises through them, spam these agencies with your CV and let them know you're available within 30 days. Have enough references and if it's your first "gig" know how to avoid the question "do you have any experience as consultant" like the plague. If you register as freelancer remember you have to pay your own taxes and healthcare. A good rule of thumb for how much you should charge: take the avg salary for a full-time/perm role in this domain and double or x2.5 it. You need to be able to live comfortably by working 8 months out of 12 (risk-mgmt: if you are suddenly out of a project - though in all the years this never ever happened to me). You need to deduct your healthcare (in Switzerland / Germany it is very low ~300 upwards for a good plan), social security: put away 30% for retirement. Any expenses (car or costs for transport that includes the leasing rate on your new BMW, Tesla or Porsche) is an expense provided that you use it for work most of the time (talk to an accountant which you would have to anyway to do the taxes for you at year end. costs €600-€800/year). Things to avoid in Germany/Austria: agencies that promise you a full-time gig but contract you out to their clients as a freelancer. You would not believe the sh1t I have seen in this space. The system is called "Arbeitnehmerüberlassung" in German (and specific to Germany) which borders on modern slavery. If anyone needs guidance feel free to send me a DM on twitter.

DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
for completeness sake: some of the worst rates I have seen offered were from agencies in Belgium, France and especially the UK. While you can get good gigs in the UK for a decent rate the number of agencies there competing on price is huge (and the agencies are known for aggressive pricing). The result is jobs that are offered in Germany for an undisclosed amount (and you learn during the interview the pain threshold is 90,-) in the UK you have the job-spec telling you to that the budget is €50,- Stay away from bad agencies! (actually the risk of not getting paid is higher when directly working for a client and if an agency stiffs you for the fee then something really terrible is going on)
expertentipp 9y ago
> agencies that promise you a full-time gig but contract you out to their clients as a freelancer. You would not believe the sh1t I have seen in this space This is a plague in post-Communist EU countries. They provide defined-term employment contract and an Eastern European salary. The clients in DE/UK/US treat you like a disposable Angular- or React-whore.
- mamon 9y ago
  I'm not sure which post-communist countries you're talking about, but at least in my country virtually every job offer gives you a choice: full time employment or self-employment contract with daily rate. And for your employer/agency it usually does not matter which one you choose. For you it matters because self-employment get's you 30-50% higher salary, thanks to lower taxes and social security payments. And daily rates in self employment are usually around 250-300 Euro (for senior roles), so you can almost match Western European salaries.
  - DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
    I'm currently living in Eastern EU (actually one of the cheapest of all the Eastern-EU markets) and there hardly are any jobs to begin with. The "good" people here know their value and all have left the country so sadly there is a massive brain drain. There is a huge difference between bringing added value as a consultant that sees a new environment / incl all its challenges, every 3-6 months, and those remote workers peddling their service on upwork.com / freelance.com. Those who sell only their coding fall into this category while those who sell their know-how will be way above that rate. If you want to compete on price (and always stay there work via upwork & Co) but if you want to separate yourself from the rest some legwork isn't optional. Just because somebody is a freelancer and writes an invoice (to the same client) every month doesn't add value to most clients. And so this doesn't get anywhere near the rates you get if you carve out your niche and name for yourself. If you work with 2 or 3 agencies w/ changing clients every 12-18 months then you are already in a sweet spot.
  - slavoingilizov 9y ago
    You ignore the value of all benefits you get from full time employment. The 30-50% salary is not that rosy in reality. You're assuming that you don't contribute to a pension, pay out of pocket for every expense if any, additional cost of transportation, gym membership etc. Many full time employees get these by default. So you're over-simplifying and distorting the size of the difference. In addition, self-employment has an added cost to do all admin (accounting, tax returns, communication and negotiation, etc.). The devs I know hate that, so you're just getting more money by doing extra shitty work (from one perspective at least). Apples and oranges.
bitL 9y ago
In Germany you have to master at least C1-level, preferably C2-level of German, which is a huge time sink (3-5 years of studying). Only then you would be accepted for positions/contracts >100k, even if you are a world-class person smashing code/deep learning/etc. like crazy. I'd recommend anyone that doesn't know German on such level to avoid both Germany and Switzerland; you'd probably be better compensated even in Romania as I've heard. Avoid UK in any case, they don't value techies at all and salaries there are just jokes. Try Norway/Denmark for better luck or make a Delaware/Nevada LLC and do your business in the US while residing in Europe.
- DyslexicAtheist 9y ago
  agree on the German requirement that can be hard. Though I have contracted out many times Americans and Brits to my clients. The biggest difficulties I have had placing foreigners were Munich (anywhere in Bavaria), and Stuttgart (strangely). Best places to place foreigners were Berlin (start-ups in Berlin often have no money to even consider well paid consultants) but there are some firms (Soundcloud & Co) who I am aware have some real international rockstars on their portfolio. Well funded Berlin based start-ups are well positioned to hire from the same pool as Apple, Google & Co. In case of Switzerland I think it is similar: Switzerland has one of the highest rates of foreigners in their workforce in all of continental Europe. The options there are limited (if you're in Banking, Insurance you should have no problem around Zurich/Zug and even work on some exciting blockchain stuff) Other areas in CH would be security (both start-ups and well established mobile operators looking for experts). The typical SaaS landscape is too small both in CH and in Germany to compete with high traffic platforms from the US (some small "regional champions" excluded). You can certainly find something in both Germany and Switzerland (even you don't speak German) provided you have the skills.
- raverbashing 9y ago
  > I'd recommend anyone that doesn't know German on such level to avoid both Germany and Switzerland; you'd probably be better compensated even in Romania as I've heard. I just love these completely unfounded assertions You work for a company that works in English as many exist and get paid a regular salary. A lot of people do that, your claim is baseless
Toast_25 9y ago
Holy shit, thank you <3
s3nnyy 9y ago
>Yes you get a lot of competition on entry level roles. The opportunities for engineers working as experienced consultants is massive in Germany and Switzerland Also, entry level is paid well. If you want to know more about Switzerland, here a blogpost I wrote 4 years ago and which is still valid today: "Eight reasons why I moved to Switzerland to work in tech" https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-to-switzerland-to-work-in-it-c7ac18af4f90 https://medium.com/@iwaninzurich/eight-reasons-why-i-moved-t... (disclaimer: I am a founder of a tech recruitment agency and we look for tech talent all over Europe who want to join Swiss companies. If you look for a tech job e-mail me at iwan@coderfit.com.)