5 ms·

Children and Gender Inequality: Evidence from Denmark [pdf]

13 points by sndean 9y ago

ACow_Adonis 9y ago
Back when I worked for the Aus bureau of stats, I picked up the name of this phenomenon as "the nappy valley". The name stemmed from plotting various demographic and performance stats against each other split by gender. Male and female trends often moved in lock step, except for the child bearing years where female metrics dropped away as though falling into the metaphorical valley. After the child bearing years, females would "climb out" and start on an upward trend again, much like the males who never entered the valley, but they could never catch up again against the opportunity cost of spending that time in the valley. /anecdote
- jamesrom 9y ago
  As an Australian, I wonder why I’ve never seen this published on the ABS website?
  - ACow_Adonis 9y ago
    My knowledge could be a few years out of date now, but in all parts of the ABS dealings, there's always been a public policy debate and tension between what I'll call the philosophy of "statistical and policy interpretation of data" and "straight-up statistical reporting with no policy advice or interpretation". That is to say, the tension between being a data collecting and reporting agency, and making interpretations and comments on government policy and context using the data to draw conclusions and comment. The argument for "just report" is that we should strive to let the population interpret the numbers while the ABS just reports certain key figures. This emphasizes the apolitical and independent nature of the ABS. It can also be argued to be the cheaper option. The downside is that arguably the public is less informed. The argument for the later is that numbers and statistics need expert interpretation and contextualization, and who better to inform the nation than the people on the front line with expertise in the subject mattesr and experience with the data. It is seen by many public servants as their job to not only collect and report data, but interpret it and comment on policy as well. The downside is that pushes against the tension of being/appearing apolitical, potentially makes enemies and encroaches upon private enterprise, and expands the scope of the ABS from just being a data collection agency. It also costs more money and time. Over the years, various governments and various statisticians and various subjections have had differences of opinions and different philosophies as to which to fund, support, emphasise and de-emphasise. Now, a phrasing like "nappy valley" would probably not make it into the final reports, but one publication involving investigating of such things called Australian Social Trends. I would say this fell more into the "interpret" camp. See the Nov 2013 edition below for one on pregnancy and return to work. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/allprimarymainfeatures/5849F483A2C5646ECA257C9E00177D59?opendocument http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/allprimarymainfeatur... You will notice that the last Australian Social Trends publication was in march 2014. Another similar publication I remember from that time was called Measures of Australia's progress: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/1370.0 http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/1370.0 and http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/1370.0main+features672013 http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/1370.0main+fe... Again, i'm not aware of a refresh since 2013/14. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to use wikipedia and see if they can figure out what Australian political events correlate with such dates and the ending of such reports...
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
danbolt 9y ago
I think the comments about labour supply with respect maternal grandparents are a really interesting note. Or, I can imagine your upbringing would shape a lot of our subtle inclinations and decisions with regard to things.
xevb3k 9y ago
The article suggests that remaining gender inequality in Denmark is due to women leaving the work force (for a period of time) when they have children, and other factors related to bearing children. It seems that one way forward might be to extend paid parental leave for both parents. It depends on access to childcare, but I feel it’s hard to be back to 100% at work within the first 2 years of a child being born in any case. This might help level the playing field. It might also help fathers take a more active role in raising children (unfortunately fathers still appear to be generally less active in this area): https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childcare-men-pull-weight https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childca...
- aaronblohowiak 9y ago
  one of the most controversial comments that i have left on HN suggested the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14334325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14334325
  - xevb3k 9y ago
    Your comment was interesting, I think I mostly agree. Culturally the work that is raising children still seems to be devalued (particularly, during the early years, which is arguably when it’s hardest). So, it’s unlikely that we will see gender normalization in this area unless cultural norms shift (and it’s seem as important and valuable). And it doesn’t have a stronger economic impact on males than females (I.e. longer paid leave for both parents is available).
- bill_mon 9y ago
  What do you want to achieve with these changes and why? It seems to me that we need to have those thing figured out pretty clearly before we try to apply cures. If all discriminating laws are gone, aren't we simply left with basic nature and some very-slow-to-change cultural habits?

13 points by sndean 9y ago

Back when I worked for the Aus bureau of stats, I picked up the name of this phenomenon as "the nappy valley". The name stemmed from plotting various demographic and performance stats against each other split by gender. Male and female trends often moved in lock step, except for the child bearing years where female metrics dropped away as though falling into the metaphorical valley. After the child bearing years, females would "climb out" and start on an upward trend again, much like the males who never entered the valley, but they could never catch up again against the opportunity cost of spending that time in the valley. /anecdote

jamesrom 9y ago
As an Australian, I wonder why I’ve never seen this published on the ABS website?
- ACow_Adonis 9y ago
  My knowledge could be a few years out of date now, but in all parts of the ABS dealings, there's always been a public policy debate and tension between what I'll call the philosophy of "statistical and policy interpretation of data" and "straight-up statistical reporting with no policy advice or interpretation". That is to say, the tension between being a data collecting and reporting agency, and making interpretations and comments on government policy and context using the data to draw conclusions and comment. The argument for "just report" is that we should strive to let the population interpret the numbers while the ABS just reports certain key figures. This emphasizes the apolitical and independent nature of the ABS. It can also be argued to be the cheaper option. The downside is that arguably the public is less informed. The argument for the later is that numbers and statistics need expert interpretation and contextualization, and who better to inform the nation than the people on the front line with expertise in the subject mattesr and experience with the data. It is seen by many public servants as their job to not only collect and report data, but interpret it and comment on policy as well. The downside is that pushes against the tension of being/appearing apolitical, potentially makes enemies and encroaches upon private enterprise, and expands the scope of the ABS from just being a data collection agency. It also costs more money and time. Over the years, various governments and various statisticians and various subjections have had differences of opinions and different philosophies as to which to fund, support, emphasise and de-emphasise. Now, a phrasing like "nappy valley" would probably not make it into the final reports, but one publication involving investigating of such things called Australian Social Trends. I would say this fell more into the "interpret" camp. See the Nov 2013 edition below for one on pregnancy and return to work. http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/allprimarymainfeatures/5849F483A2C5646ECA257C9E00177D59?opendocument http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/allprimarymainfeatur... You will notice that the last Australian Social Trends publication was in march 2014. Another similar publication I remember from that time was called Measures of Australia's progress: http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/1370.0 http://www.abs.gov.au/AUSSTATS/abs@.nsf/mf/1370.0 and http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/1370.0main+features672013 http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/1370.0main+fe... Again, i'm not aware of a refresh since 2013/14. I leave it as an exercise for the reader to use wikipedia and see if they can figure out what Australian political events correlate with such dates and the ending of such reports...

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

danbolt 9y ago

I think the comments about labour supply with respect maternal grandparents are a really interesting note. Or, I can imagine your upbringing would shape a lot of our subtle inclinations and decisions with regard to things.

xevb3k 9y ago

The article suggests that remaining gender inequality in Denmark is due to women leaving the work force (for a period of time) when they have children, and other factors related to bearing children. It seems that one way forward might be to extend paid parental leave for both parents. It depends on access to childcare, but I feel it’s hard to be back to 100% at work within the first 2 years of a child being born in any case. This might help level the playing field. It might also help fathers take a more active role in raising children (unfortunately fathers still appear to be generally less active in this area): https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childcare-men-pull-weight https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2013/jul/05/childca...

aaronblohowiak 9y ago
one of the most controversial comments that i have left on HN suggested the same: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14334325 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14334325
- xevb3k 9y ago
  Your comment was interesting, I think I mostly agree. Culturally the work that is raising children still seems to be devalued (particularly, during the early years, which is arguably when it’s hardest). So, it’s unlikely that we will see gender normalization in this area unless cultural norms shift (and it’s seem as important and valuable). And it doesn’t have a stronger economic impact on males than females (I.e. longer paid leave for both parents is available).
bill_mon 9y ago
What do you want to achieve with these changes and why? It seems to me that we need to have those thing figured out pretty clearly before we try to apply cures. If all discriminating laws are gone, aren't we simply left with basic nature and some very-slow-to-change cultural habits?