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You're also (I presume) an engineer. Most writers don't have the skills to build something like this. One way to look at it is "I'm losing 10%". Another way is

You're also (I presume) an engineer. Most writers don't have the skills to build something like this. One way to look at it is "I'm losing 10%". Another way is "I'm now making 90% I couldn't have otherwise made."

cjbest 9y ago
True, and we hope that if we do a good enough job we can provide more value for the 10% than you get by switching even as you grow. We’ve seen writers doing this report that they spend up to 40% of their time messing around with the platform - if we can improve on that by a chunk and let them focus on writing it adds up!
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  I'm positive that that's true when you're making $1k / month. When you're making $10k or $20k or $50k per month? No way. There is no way that it's a better use of your time and money to pay thousands of dollars per month vs. just switching to a flat rate provider. You're not providing much more value for someone making $10k / month vs. someone making $1k / month (the email sending costs here are super negligible), so why am I paying 10x as much? So again, it's just an incentive to switch as soon as you start making real money.
  - cjbest 9y ago
    I agree with you. I just think it’s the right challenge for us to solve for: how do we continue to deliver that much value (or as much as possible) vs. being the lowest cost option for email + payments + website.
    - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
      Have you considered charging 20%? Think of the value you'd be forced to provide! :) In all seriousness, this is a good attitude to have, except that switching from you guys to someone else is going to be genuinely painful. The provider I use now has an API and provides full CSV and JSON exports of everything, and then all the actual payments live in Stripe. Switching should be a snap, right? But it's still a pain to migrate over the user accounts, force users to reset their logins, setup new subscriptions with the same different billing amounts (prices have changed over time), discount codes, and billing dates, ensure that everything continues smoothly so I keep getting my money, switch over all the integration points with my site and analytics, etc, etc, etc. It's such a pain to switch that many just won't bother to pay that big upfront cost in order to save money every month going forward and will just put it off, which is why I find this pricing model to be particularly aggravating. They wouldn't have signed up for it in the first place had they known, but they didn't know and now they're "trapped". I hope you're just underestimating the difficult of switching away and not counting on it!
ryanwaggoner 9y ago
You don't have to build this. There are tons of membership management plugins and platforms out there, pretty much all integrate with Stripe, and most of them will keep a mailchimp list in sync so you can easily send emails to just your paying members. EDIT: I also hate the logic of "meh, fees don't matter, my revenue would be zero otherwise!!" It's not true (you have other cheaper alternatives), but even if it was, doesn't that mean you should be fine paying 99% in fees to platforms and credit cards and whoever else? After all, 1% is better than 0%!!!"
- Moto7451 9y ago
  You can also download an install an IRC server or Jabber server to run corporate chat, yet tech companies happily use the paid version of Slack. Not managing the thing you aren’t good at or interested in doing is the value prop.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    You’re absolutely right. But how many of those services charge 10% of revenue? Zero. And if 10% of revenue uncapped isn’t too much “because not interested”, why not 20% or 50%? You’re obviously welcome to pay 10%, I just think it’s foolish once revenue hits a certain point. Edit: think of it this way: you already have $20k per month of paid newsletter revenue and you need a new membership billing provider. Other options are $20 - 100 per month and won’t go up any more. Would you even consider one with the same or fewer features that’s $2000 per month (and will take 10% of every marginal dollar from there)? I really doubt it. I love sleek, simple, elegant tools, but I won’t pay any price for them.
    - ziikutv 9y ago
      > But how many of those services charge 10% of revenue? Zero. I am not discounting the points you've made. I understand that there are definitely cases where 10% might be too high. Hell, it might even be applicable here. Respectively, I disagree with your quoted comment. Are you sure its zero? Uber Rush delivery drivers make 75-80%. Where do you think the rest of the delivery fee goes? This was just from my first Google. I am sure you can find more examples of this being not the case. Going back to the topic at hand. For a dev like me, I think 10% is high but agree with the points made. There are 100s of posts online of people writing shit for free. I am sure you can even find a dozen of subreddits alone for writing. From their POV this can be seen as a secondary source of income. Most people who are GOOD writers - at a point where anyone would buy their 'product - have been writing for many years. They could even be doing this as a profession (think book writers). For them, do also see 10% being a high fee? -- > I just think it’s foolish once revenue hits a certain point. including your edit are home run!

cjbest 9y ago

True, and we hope that if we do a good enough job we can provide more value for the 10% than you get by switching even as you grow. We’ve seen writers doing this report that they spend up to 40% of their time messing around with the platform - if we can improve on that by a chunk and let them focus on writing it adds up!

ryanwaggoner 9y ago
I'm positive that that's true when you're making $1k / month. When you're making $10k or $20k or $50k per month? No way. There is no way that it's a better use of your time and money to pay thousands of dollars per month vs. just switching to a flat rate provider. You're not providing much more value for someone making $10k / month vs. someone making $1k / month (the email sending costs here are super negligible), so why am I paying 10x as much? So again, it's just an incentive to switch as soon as you start making real money.
- cjbest 9y ago
  I agree with you. I just think it’s the right challenge for us to solve for: how do we continue to deliver that much value (or as much as possible) vs. being the lowest cost option for email + payments + website.
  - ryanwaggoner 9y ago
    Have you considered charging 20%? Think of the value you'd be forced to provide! :) In all seriousness, this is a good attitude to have, except that switching from you guys to someone else is going to be genuinely painful. The provider I use now has an API and provides full CSV and JSON exports of everything, and then all the actual payments live in Stripe. Switching should be a snap, right? But it's still a pain to migrate over the user accounts, force users to reset their logins, setup new subscriptions with the same different billing amounts (prices have changed over time), discount codes, and billing dates, ensure that everything continues smoothly so I keep getting my money, switch over all the integration points with my site and analytics, etc, etc, etc. It's such a pain to switch that many just won't bother to pay that big upfront cost in order to save money every month going forward and will just put it off, which is why I find this pricing model to be particularly aggravating. They wouldn't have signed up for it in the first place had they known, but they didn't know and now they're "trapped". I hope you're just underestimating the difficult of switching away and not counting on it!

ryanwaggoner 9y ago

You don't have to build this. There are tons of membership management plugins and platforms out there, pretty much all integrate with Stripe, and most of them will keep a mailchimp list in sync so you can easily send emails to just your paying members. EDIT: I also hate the logic of "meh, fees don't matter, my revenue would be zero otherwise!!" It's not true (you have other cheaper alternatives), but even if it was, doesn't that mean you should be fine paying 99% in fees to platforms and credit cards and whoever else? After all, 1% is better than 0%!!!"

Moto7451 9y ago
You can also download an install an IRC server or Jabber server to run corporate chat, yet tech companies happily use the paid version of Slack. Not managing the thing you aren’t good at or interested in doing is the value prop.
- ryanwaggoner 9y ago
  You’re absolutely right. But how many of those services charge 10% of revenue? Zero. And if 10% of revenue uncapped isn’t too much “because not interested”, why not 20% or 50%? You’re obviously welcome to pay 10%, I just think it’s foolish once revenue hits a certain point. Edit: think of it this way: you already have $20k per month of paid newsletter revenue and you need a new membership billing provider. Other options are $20 - 100 per month and won’t go up any more. Would you even consider one with the same or fewer features that’s $2000 per month (and will take 10% of every marginal dollar from there)? I really doubt it. I love sleek, simple, elegant tools, but I won’t pay any price for them.
  - ziikutv 9y ago
    > But how many of those services charge 10% of revenue? Zero. I am not discounting the points you've made. I understand that there are definitely cases where 10% might be too high. Hell, it might even be applicable here. Respectively, I disagree with your quoted comment. Are you sure its zero? Uber Rush delivery drivers make 75-80%. Where do you think the rest of the delivery fee goes? This was just from my first Google. I am sure you can find more examples of this being not the case. Going back to the topic at hand. For a dev like me, I think 10% is high but agree with the points made. There are 100s of posts online of people writing shit for free. I am sure you can even find a dozen of subreddits alone for writing. From their POV this can be seen as a secondary source of income. Most people who are GOOD writers - at a point where anyone would buy their 'product - have been writing for many years. They could even be doing this as a profession (think book writers). For them, do also see 10% being a high fee? -- > I just think it’s foolish once revenue hits a certain point. including your edit are home run!