6 ms·

When you don't pay your web developer

34 points by mark-ruwt 9y ago

eberkund 9y ago
I hope he pays you soon, that landing page surely isn't good for business.
Dryken 9y ago
hope you both get paid and don't get into trouble because of this.
- fancyfacebook 9y ago
  Oh no, trouble! That's the worst thing that could happen to someone! Getting in trouble! People should stand up for themselves more, you deserve to be paid for your work. The client is the only person who should be in trouble. Don't be afraid of trouble.
  - jdietrich 9y ago
    You could legit go to jail under the CFAA for a stunt like this.
  - matt4077 9y ago
    You can't just sabotage your product because you didn't get paid. That just creates two wrongs that do not simply cancel each other out from a legal point of view. There's a legal system to settle payment disputes. Using it is the civilised, and safe, version of "standing up for yourself". Many service providers will put up nondescript error pages when the account isn't being paid. That's somewhat safer, but might not apply here: service providers are refusing to continue service. They're not changing a product that was already delivered.
  - salad77 9y ago
    I was just about to purchase $10,001 worth of services from them and have now decided not to because of the computer trespass by the web developer. According to https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0254.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0254.htm that makes it a Class B Felony. Plus the prima facie tort for the lost business. Are you sure it's such a good idea to go around looking for trouble like this? There are plenty of legal recovery avenues without going looking for trouble and pretending it's just standing up for yourself - a defense which will go nowhere in a felony hearing.
    - jtruk 9y ago
      FWIW the business is based in Kenya.
    - pkaye 9y ago
      I guess you assume US laws are applicable everywhere in the world?
      - salad77 9y ago
        I guess you assume that because it's an African country that they don't have computer crime laws ? http://kenyalaw.org/kl/fileadmin/pdfdownloads/bills/2017/ComputerandCybercrimesBill_2017.pdf http://kenyalaw.org/kl/fileadmin/pdfdownloads/bills/2017/Com...
        pkaye 9y ago
        You posted a link to Connecticut laws/regulations in your original post. I don't think that is applicable to Kenya.
  - gmemstr 9y ago
    > Don't be afraid of trouble. Legally speaking, you probably should be. Contracts work when done properly.
mykoleary 9y ago
US law doesn't apply to businesses based in Kenya... http://web.archive.org/web/20160701233200/http://greentouchlandscapers.com:80/contacts.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160701233200/http://greentouchl...
EADGBE 9y ago
Funny. Though I would have just turned off the record sets for said domain. (assuming I had that control) Even less effort, more professional response.
beisner 9y ago
All things considered, while this is certainly might feel satisfying, it's a rather irresponsible move on the developer's part. Not only would this sort of behavior turn off future clients (shows that the developer is vindictive and unprofessional), but the dev is almost certainly legally exposed. IANAL, but it would be trivial for the client to show in court that the dev's actions led to quantifiable damages to their business, and might even be open to criminal prosecution. The correct way to resolve this depends on the contract the dev signed in the first place. If the dev retains IP under the contract, they may be able to take the website down, or revert it to a previous state. If not, I'm not totally sure. Certainly the dev should refuse to perform any work for the client, and probably should solicit legal advice (relatively inexpensive to take a client to small claims court).
- gmemstr 9y ago
  Recently on reddit I answered a question on the /r/webdev subreddit asking about backdoors in websites in case the client doesn't pay[1]. Sometimes webdevs don't quite understand how to deal with clients who don't pay, and the real answer is get a legally binding contract. Most other devs I know don't bother with this though, and leads to some frustrations on their part. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/7u5965/how_to_add_backdoor_to_client_websites/ https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/7u5965/how_to_add_b...
- philipodonnell 9y ago
  What if you had in your terms that the website had to utilize your proprietary javascript injected analytics package until the balance was paid in full? That way you could inject a "didn't pay" popup similar to NYT when you run out of articles. The client could always edit the code to remove it themselves, of course, but they may not have the skills and if they hire another web developer they'll know they didn't pay the previous one.
- yuhong 9y ago
  I wonder what if the client sued and then the developer counter-sue for the breach of contract.
millzlane 9y ago
Serious question could a non-payment clause protect you from a client claiming damages from a stunt like this? For instance could you include a clause that states: "In the event of non-payment, development on the site will cease and will be replaced with a temporary landing page until payment issue is resolved."
- justboxing 9y ago
  Even if you have such a clause, it would be very trivial like @beisner has stated, for client to prove reputation damage and loss of business (even if they weren't making money to begin with). > it would be trivial for the client to show in court that the dev's actions led to quantifiable damages to their business, and might even be open to criminal prosecution. Source: @beisner https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16326732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16326732
  - Slansitartop 9y ago
    Couldn't you add another clause stating that the webdev is not responsible for any reputation damage, loss of business, or any other damages caused by the non-payment landing page?
    - philipov 9y ago
      Try to get a client to agree to such a clause, especially when they've probably already decided the likelihood of not paying the developer at the time they are hiring them.
      - Slansitartop 9y ago
        > Try to get a client to agree to such a clause, especially when they've probably already decided the likelihood of not paying the developer at the time they are hiring them. Seems to me like that's not a bad thing. If they're not planning on paying in full, you probably don't want to do any work for them. Better to find out sooner than later.
      - 9y ago
draw_down 9y ago
I predict the usual moralizing comments about how not paying people is bad, but doing this is soo much worse.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
nickphx 9y ago
lol. A web "developer" that uses Microsoft Word -- Export as HTML.. <o:DocumentProperties> <o:Author>John Raphah</o:Author> <o:Template>Normal</o:Template> <o:LastAuthor>John Raphah</o:LastAuthor> <o:Revision>5</o:Revision> <o:TotalTime>62</o:TotalTime> <o:Created>2018-02-06T15:35:00Z</o:Created> <o:LastSaved>2018-02-06T16:15:00Z</o:LastSaved> Looking at archive.org's snapshot from 2017.. I wouldn't pay this "developer" either.. https://web.archive.org/web/20170512143057/http://www.greentouchlandscapers.com:80/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170512143057/http://www.greent...
- brianwawok 9y ago
  That was the first thing I saw looking at the source... So embarassing
- spiderfarmer 9y ago
  Oh, wow: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Ps67Tpd4M https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Ps67Tpd4M Still living in 1999.
- CM30 9y ago
  Yeah, using tables for layout, a XHTML transitional doctype at the start, inline CSS and a general lack of mobile responsiveness doesn't suggest the most up to date knowledge of web development. Still, I guess for the 'pay me' page, it could be somewhat assumed to be a simple rush job given the situation involved, so maybe the dev just wanted any old way to get a page up for this rant. And hey, it's still more modern than this thing was: https://web.archive.org/web/20160322053716/http://www.webkingusa.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160322053716/http://www.webkin... That's something, right?
- HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
  Whatever meets the terms of the contract...
Slansitartop 9y ago
Warning: the embedded music video is probably NSFW due to nudity.
ben174 9y ago
Empty page now, anyone got a snapshot?
- Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
  Screenshot: https://imgur.com/PNstZf2 https://imgur.com/PNstZf2
featherverse 9y ago
Who built that? That's a real easy way to get blacklisted. When your response to disagreements with your customers is to act in an unprofessional and childish manner you make everyone look bad. I've worked with lots of people like that during my career and frankly you should be able to get employed with that kind of "king of the world" attitude. Go flip burgers or something. I'm not kidding.

34 points by mark-ruwt 9y ago

eberkund 9y ago

I hope he pays you soon, that landing page surely isn't good for business.

Dryken 9y ago

hope you both get paid and don't get into trouble because of this.

fancyfacebook 9y ago
Oh no, trouble! That's the worst thing that could happen to someone! Getting in trouble! People should stand up for themselves more, you deserve to be paid for your work. The client is the only person who should be in trouble. Don't be afraid of trouble.
- jdietrich 9y ago
  You could legit go to jail under the CFAA for a stunt like this.
- matt4077 9y ago
  You can't just sabotage your product because you didn't get paid. That just creates two wrongs that do not simply cancel each other out from a legal point of view. There's a legal system to settle payment disputes. Using it is the civilised, and safe, version of "standing up for yourself". Many service providers will put up nondescript error pages when the account isn't being paid. That's somewhat safer, but might not apply here: service providers are refusing to continue service. They're not changing a product that was already delivered.
- salad77 9y ago
  I was just about to purchase $10,001 worth of services from them and have now decided not to because of the computer trespass by the web developer. According to https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0254.htm https://www.cga.ct.gov/2012/rpt/2012-R-0254.htm that makes it a Class B Felony. Plus the prima facie tort for the lost business. Are you sure it's such a good idea to go around looking for trouble like this? There are plenty of legal recovery avenues without going looking for trouble and pretending it's just standing up for yourself - a defense which will go nowhere in a felony hearing.
  - jtruk 9y ago
    FWIW the business is based in Kenya.
  - pkaye 9y ago
    I guess you assume US laws are applicable everywhere in the world?
    - salad77 9y ago
      I guess you assume that because it's an African country that they don't have computer crime laws ? http://kenyalaw.org/kl/fileadmin/pdfdownloads/bills/2017/ComputerandCybercrimesBill_2017.pdf http://kenyalaw.org/kl/fileadmin/pdfdownloads/bills/2017/Com...
      - pkaye 9y ago
        You posted a link to Connecticut laws/regulations in your original post. I don't think that is applicable to Kenya.
- gmemstr 9y ago
  > Don't be afraid of trouble. Legally speaking, you probably should be. Contracts work when done properly.

mykoleary 9y ago

US law doesn't apply to businesses based in Kenya... http://web.archive.org/web/20160701233200/http://greentouchlandscapers.com:80/contacts.html http://web.archive.org/web/20160701233200/http://greentouchl...

EADGBE 9y ago

Funny. Though I would have just turned off the record sets for said domain. (assuming I had that control) Even less effort, more professional response.

beisner 9y ago

All things considered, while this is certainly might feel satisfying, it's a rather irresponsible move on the developer's part. Not only would this sort of behavior turn off future clients (shows that the developer is vindictive and unprofessional), but the dev is almost certainly legally exposed. IANAL, but it would be trivial for the client to show in court that the dev's actions led to quantifiable damages to their business, and might even be open to criminal prosecution. The correct way to resolve this depends on the contract the dev signed in the first place. If the dev retains IP under the contract, they may be able to take the website down, or revert it to a previous state. If not, I'm not totally sure. Certainly the dev should refuse to perform any work for the client, and probably should solicit legal advice (relatively inexpensive to take a client to small claims court).

gmemstr 9y ago
Recently on reddit I answered a question on the /r/webdev subreddit asking about backdoors in websites in case the client doesn't pay[1]. Sometimes webdevs don't quite understand how to deal with clients who don't pay, and the real answer is get a legally binding contract. Most other devs I know don't bother with this though, and leads to some frustrations on their part. [1]: https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/7u5965/how_to_add_backdoor_to_client_websites/ https://www.reddit.com/r/webdev/comments/7u5965/how_to_add_b...
philipodonnell 9y ago
What if you had in your terms that the website had to utilize your proprietary javascript injected analytics package until the balance was paid in full? That way you could inject a "didn't pay" popup similar to NYT when you run out of articles. The client could always edit the code to remove it themselves, of course, but they may not have the skills and if they hire another web developer they'll know they didn't pay the previous one.
yuhong 9y ago
I wonder what if the client sued and then the developer counter-sue for the breach of contract.

millzlane 9y ago

Serious question could a non-payment clause protect you from a client claiming damages from a stunt like this? For instance could you include a clause that states: "In the event of non-payment, development on the site will cease and will be replaced with a temporary landing page until payment issue is resolved."

justboxing 9y ago
Even if you have such a clause, it would be very trivial like @beisner has stated, for client to prove reputation damage and loss of business (even if they weren't making money to begin with). > it would be trivial for the client to show in court that the dev's actions led to quantifiable damages to their business, and might even be open to criminal prosecution. Source: @beisner https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16326732 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16326732
- Slansitartop 9y ago
  Couldn't you add another clause stating that the webdev is not responsible for any reputation damage, loss of business, or any other damages caused by the non-payment landing page?
  - philipov 9y ago
    Try to get a client to agree to such a clause, especially when they've probably already decided the likelihood of not paying the developer at the time they are hiring them.
    - Slansitartop 9y ago
      > Try to get a client to agree to such a clause, especially when they've probably already decided the likelihood of not paying the developer at the time they are hiring them. Seems to me like that's not a bad thing. If they're not planning on paying in full, you probably don't want to do any work for them. Better to find out sooner than later.
    - 9y ago

draw_down 9y ago

I predict the usual moralizing comments about how not paying people is bad, but doing this is soo much worse.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

nickphx 9y ago

lol. A web "developer" that uses Microsoft Word -- Export as HTML.. <o:DocumentProperties> <o:Author>John Raphah</o:Author> <o:Template>Normal</o:Template> <o:LastAuthor>John Raphah</o:LastAuthor> <o:Revision>5</o:Revision> <o:TotalTime>62</o:TotalTime> <o:Created>2018-02-06T15:35:00Z</o:Created> <o:LastSaved>2018-02-06T16:15:00Z</o:LastSaved> Looking at archive.org's snapshot from 2017.. I wouldn't pay this "developer" either.. https://web.archive.org/web/20170512143057/http://www.greentouchlandscapers.com:80/ https://web.archive.org/web/20170512143057/http://www.greent...

brianwawok 9y ago
That was the first thing I saw looking at the source... So embarassing
spiderfarmer 9y ago
Oh, wow: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Ps67Tpd4M https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F6Ps67Tpd4M Still living in 1999.
CM30 9y ago
Yeah, using tables for layout, a XHTML transitional doctype at the start, inline CSS and a general lack of mobile responsiveness doesn't suggest the most up to date knowledge of web development. Still, I guess for the 'pay me' page, it could be somewhat assumed to be a simple rush job given the situation involved, so maybe the dev just wanted any old way to get a page up for this rant. And hey, it's still more modern than this thing was: https://web.archive.org/web/20160322053716/http://www.webkingusa.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20160322053716/http://www.webkin... That's something, right?
HeyLaughingBoy 9y ago
Whatever meets the terms of the contract...

Slansitartop 9y ago

Warning: the embedded music video is probably NSFW due to nudity.

ben174 9y ago

Empty page now, anyone got a snapshot?

Sohcahtoa82 9y ago
Screenshot: https://imgur.com/PNstZf2 https://imgur.com/PNstZf2

featherverse 9y ago

Who built that? That's a real easy way to get blacklisted. When your response to disagreements with your customers is to act in an unprofessional and childish manner you make everyone look bad. I've worked with lots of people like that during my career and frankly you should be able to get employed with that kind of "king of the world" attitude. Go flip burgers or something. I'm not kidding.