2 ms·

> Well, to me that's a reason not to read the essay, because it sounds quite like a naturalistic fallacy to care whether someone had offspring. I think you'll

> Well, to me that's a reason not to read the essay, because it sounds quite like a naturalistic fallacy to care whether someone had offspring. I think you'll find it a thought-provoking essay regardless of your personal ethics. It's well-written, has lots of numbers, and brings up a lot of counterintuitive/counter-cultural points. I found it through Hacker News originally, actually.

deleted 16y ago
[deleted]
jacobolus 16y ago
Frankly life is pretty shitty for (e.g.) rural peasants of both genders, and while in general in the past men had more independence and ability to choose their life direction, etc., I’ve always been pretty skeptical of attempts to rank the two in any absolute way. Men got killed in high numbers in war. Women got raped by invading armies. Men worked extremely physically demanding jobs that made their muscles and bones give out by age 40. Women worked differently physically demanding jobs that resulted in terrible repetitive stress injuries. Men often had legal rights over their wives, but of course had all kinds of ways of exerting their own influence and control. In some societies, many men were stuck as lonely bachelors while women were forced to become bottom-of-the-totem-pole second or third wives. Etc. There is absolutely an important and in many ways terrible impact on a society from having one gender mostly in charge of the official hierarchies of social and political control. But it’s also the easiest thing to examine and understand from afar, and so it can overshadow other (maybe just as important) parts of the culture. [edit: I skimmed the essay under discussion and part of it makes loosely the same point as this latter. One thing it does which I find annoying is that in using Larry Summers’s sacking as an example it ignores that the faculty wanted Summers out long before his famous comments, for completely unrelated reasons. His misdeed was not “to think thoughts that are not allowed to be thought” and to characterize it that way is quite misleading. I also am annoyed at the analysis of histograms of grades, test scores, and salaries as implying more about innate ability than they do about cultural assimilation.]
- gaius 16y ago
  Men worked extremely physically demanding jobs that made their muscles and bones give out by age 40 Yes, this is kinda the little secret of Feminism. They see that men have "good" jobs like CEOs and want some of that for themselves, and who wouldn't? But they overlook that men are also collecting the garbage, working in the mines, and generally doing all of society's dirty, dangerous jobs. Where're the calls for "equality" in those industries?
  - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
    "When you think of a sanitation worker — riding on a garbage truck and dumping trash can after trash can — most people would picture a big, tough guy in their minds. But out of 7,000 uniformed city workers nicknamed "the strongest," 200 of them are women. In honor of women's history month, the department celebrated some of the the first females to suit up in green. Verilyn Gallo was only the third woman in the department. Now, 21 years later, she says when people see her drive the largest Sanitation truck there is they still can't believe it: GALLO: I drive "the wrecker" — any piece of equipment that the department of sanitation has — I could pick it up. I have people in the truck - who say, you don't drive that big truck and I say, "oh yes I do." REPORTER: Sixty-year-old Gallo says she still enjoys her job and the physicality of the work and is no hurry to retire." http://beta.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2008/mar/29/city-honors-female-garbage-collectors/ http://beta.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2008/mar/29/city-hon...
    - notahacker 16y ago
      That's <3% of refuse collectors So women are more shockingly underrepresented in refuse collection than in the upper ranks of the Fortune 500...
      - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
        The original claim seemed to be that women were hypocritically wanting equality only for the good CEO-type jobs. How the original poster missed the many women who have chosen to be (and often fought hard against the same prejudice they meet in "prestigious" careers to be accepted as) police officers, firefighters, soldiers, nightclub bouncers, oil rig workers and do various other dangerous, dirty or under appreciated jobs I have no idea. But I thought the example presented summed up the issue quite well given the obvious enthusiasm the worker had for her job.
Confusion 16y ago
regardless of your personal ethics My comment has nothing to do with ethics. Your prime example sounds like a common logical fallacy, which is independent of my ethics and raises my suspicions about the contents of the essay. I don't understand why I'm being downvoted into oblivion.
- waqf 16y ago
  If I had downvoted you it would have been because your reason not to read the essay seemed a poor one. However this assessment that it was a poor reason would have been itself post hoc, since I have already discovered that it's a fairly good essay. In fact the quote about number of descendants doesn't represent the essay well and I'm not sure why your parent chose it. So it's more that you turn out to have made a bad decision, than that your reasoning was unsound.

deleted 16y ago

[deleted]

jacobolus 16y ago

Frankly life is pretty shitty for (e.g.) rural peasants of both genders, and while in general in the past men had more independence and ability to choose their life direction, etc., I’ve always been pretty skeptical of attempts to rank the two in any absolute way. Men got killed in high numbers in war. Women got raped by invading armies. Men worked extremely physically demanding jobs that made their muscles and bones give out by age 40. Women worked differently physically demanding jobs that resulted in terrible repetitive stress injuries. Men often had legal rights over their wives, but of course had all kinds of ways of exerting their own influence and control. In some societies, many men were stuck as lonely bachelors while women were forced to become bottom-of-the-totem-pole second or third wives. Etc. There is absolutely an important and in many ways terrible impact on a society from having one gender mostly in charge of the official hierarchies of social and political control. But it’s also the easiest thing to examine and understand from afar, and so it can overshadow other (maybe just as important) parts of the culture. [edit: I skimmed the essay under discussion and part of it makes loosely the same point as this latter. One thing it does which I find annoying is that in using Larry Summers’s sacking as an example it ignores that the faculty wanted Summers out long before his famous comments, for completely unrelated reasons. His misdeed was not “to think thoughts that are not allowed to be thought” and to characterize it that way is quite misleading. I also am annoyed at the analysis of histograms of grades, test scores, and salaries as implying more about innate ability than they do about cultural assimilation.]

gaius 16y ago
Men worked extremely physically demanding jobs that made their muscles and bones give out by age 40 Yes, this is kinda the little secret of Feminism. They see that men have "good" jobs like CEOs and want some of that for themselves, and who wouldn't? But they overlook that men are also collecting the garbage, working in the mines, and generally doing all of society's dirty, dangerous jobs. Where're the calls for "equality" in those industries?
- ZeroGravitas 16y ago
  "When you think of a sanitation worker — riding on a garbage truck and dumping trash can after trash can — most people would picture a big, tough guy in their minds. But out of 7,000 uniformed city workers nicknamed "the strongest," 200 of them are women. In honor of women's history month, the department celebrated some of the the first females to suit up in green. Verilyn Gallo was only the third woman in the department. Now, 21 years later, she says when people see her drive the largest Sanitation truck there is they still can't believe it: GALLO: I drive "the wrecker" — any piece of equipment that the department of sanitation has — I could pick it up. I have people in the truck - who say, you don't drive that big truck and I say, "oh yes I do." REPORTER: Sixty-year-old Gallo says she still enjoys her job and the physicality of the work and is no hurry to retire." http://beta.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2008/mar/29/city-honors-female-garbage-collectors/ http://beta.wnyc.org/articles/wnyc-news/2008/mar/29/city-hon...
  - notahacker 16y ago
    That's <3% of refuse collectors So women are more shockingly underrepresented in refuse collection than in the upper ranks of the Fortune 500...
    - ZeroGravitas 16y ago
      The original claim seemed to be that women were hypocritically wanting equality only for the good CEO-type jobs. How the original poster missed the many women who have chosen to be (and often fought hard against the same prejudice they meet in "prestigious" careers to be accepted as) police officers, firefighters, soldiers, nightclub bouncers, oil rig workers and do various other dangerous, dirty or under appreciated jobs I have no idea. But I thought the example presented summed up the issue quite well given the obvious enthusiasm the worker had for her job.

Confusion 16y ago

regardless of your personal ethics My comment has nothing to do with ethics. Your prime example sounds like a common logical fallacy, which is independent of my ethics and raises my suspicions about the contents of the essay. I don't understand why I'm being downvoted into oblivion.

waqf 16y ago
If I had downvoted you it would have been because your reason not to read the essay seemed a poor one. However this assessment that it was a poor reason would have been itself post hoc, since I have already discovered that it's a fairly good essay. In fact the quote about number of descendants doesn't represent the essay well and I'm not sure why your parent chose it. So it's more that you turn out to have made a bad decision, than that your reasoning was unsound.