5 ms·

No car is ever going to be as green as a bicycle. Forget cars. A motorcycle is probably the smallest powered vehicle that is street legal. Smallest one still wi

No car is ever going to be as green as a bicycle. Forget cars. A motorcycle is probably the smallest powered vehicle that is street legal. Smallest one still will weigh at least 250lb. Moving just that mass alone, you’ve blown your energy budget vs a bicycle. Oh I suppose you could argue about the environmental cost of producing the extra calories consumed by the cyclist. Growing and transporting that grass fed steak after all is going to require a whole lot of energy too. And not the clean kind. But you are still already operating at such a handicap, that there is no way a motorcycle, let alone a car, could compete. On the other hand, unless the entire place is for bicycles only, what is the cost in human life for accidents caused by cycle-car interactions? Or the productivity cost for not showing up to work on rainy snowy days? I guess all you valley dwellers should probably cycle to work to save the planet for us all. We will applaud you from our AWD monstrosities here in the North East.

xyzzyz 9y ago
Forget cars. A motorcycle is probably the smallest powered vehicle that is street legal. Smallest one still will weigh at least 250lb. Moving just that mass alone, you’ve blown your energy budget vs a bicycle. Electric bicycles are much lighter than 250 lb, and are definitely street legal.
- IgorPartola 9y ago
  But that’s a bicycle.
  - xyzzyz 9y ago
    Let's call it a human assisted electric motorcycle then.
    - IgorPartola 9y ago
      I am trying to make a distinction between fully powered vehicles and not. You could also make a distinction between fully protected vehicles (two tons of steel around you in the form of a car) and not.
      - xyzzyz 9y ago
        Human assisted electric motorcycles are fully powered when the human is not assisting them. You are of course right that popular ICE vehicles, cars and motorcycles, are much, much heavier than humans, and so have little hope to achieve similar efficiency to humans on bicycles. However, if your constraints is to go as fast as bicycles, and be as safe as bicycles, I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to be more green. Electric engines are very, very efficient at transforming electricity to mechanical power, and solar panels are more efficient at transforming solar power to electricity than the plants are at converting solar power to edible calories.
        IgorPartola 9y ago
        My whole point is that it is a choice between a safe fast method of transportation that works on virtually all weather, and an unsafe mostly seasonal slow method of transportation that is significantly greener. A powered bicycle that can go 15 mph is not in the same category as a motorcycle that can go 80 mph. Basically, if it can go on the freeway or not is the distinction I am making. Your electric assisted bicycle is just a better, less green bicycle.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    It's an electric motorcycle. Fundamentally no different than this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_motorcycle#/media/File:Triumph_1922_H_1.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_motorcycle#/med.... or these: https://www.google.com/search?q=board+track+motorcycle&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=board+track+motorcycle&tbm=i...
npsimons 9y ago
> Oh I suppose you could argue about the environmental cost of producing the extra calories consumed by the cyclist. The human body is very efficient. I'd be extremely surprised if my 15 minute bicycle commute to work burned more than 100 calories on top of my BMR. There's just no comparison. > I guess all you valley dwellers should probably cycle to work to save the planet for us all. We will applaud you from our AWD monstrosities here in the North East. I'd link to icebike.org where they used to have pictures of people cycling in Chicago in winter and articles on suitable clothing and tires, but that domain got bought out and commercialized into some mountain bike advertising site. ETA: Here you go: http://web.archive.org/web/19990221182354/http://www.enteract.com:80/%7Eicebike/ http://web.archive.org/web/19990221182354/http://www.enterac...
- averagewall 9y ago
  Cycling isn't that great. Humans are about 10% efficient at converting food energy to power. Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy. So that's 1% efficiency from solar to pedals. Once you count the fossil fuels used in farming, which I forget the numbers for, I think a motorbike works out better for greenhouse gas emissions than cycling. Electric bike is probably the best. That's assuming you don't reduce other workouts to make up for it. So riding your e-bike to the gym defeats the purpose.
  - sampo 9y ago
    > Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy. More like 0.25% to 0.5% into the edible parts of crop plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency
- tjr225 9y ago
  In addition- bicycling is incredibly energy efficient. According to the citation in this Wikipedia article it is The most effecient means of movement available! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance You could say bicycles and vim are my favorite tools.
- 9y ago
yesbut 9y ago
Yeah, no kidding. The way things are today in many parts of the US make cars the only viable option. The real alternative to cars is better public transportation. Even cities with terrible weather can have great public transportation solutions. Cars are fine for rural areas, but no reason cities and suburbs shouldn't be re-engineered for bicycles and better public transport.
mstaoru 9y ago
In China, most people ride something like this: http://www.niu.com/ http://www.niu.com/ - small affordable (usually in $100-300 range) electric scooters that typically use 48V 20Ah batteries for a 70-80km distance. From the Niu stats, it seems like it uses about 1.1kWh/100km (in electricity), compared to a bicycle that uses about 3.1kWh/100km (in food energy, source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport#Land_transport_means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport...). If the electricity produced in a "clean" way, it seems that riding an electric scooter is quite green even compared to biking. Of course, biking has a bunch of other advantages: sport and exercise, unlimited range, transportability, not mentioning mountain biking etc.

xyzzyz 9y ago

Forget cars. A motorcycle is probably the smallest powered vehicle that is street legal. Smallest one still will weigh at least 250lb. Moving just that mass alone, you’ve blown your energy budget vs a bicycle. Electric bicycles are much lighter than 250 lb, and are definitely street legal.

IgorPartola 9y ago
But that’s a bicycle.
- xyzzyz 9y ago
  Let's call it a human assisted electric motorcycle then.
  - IgorPartola 9y ago
    I am trying to make a distinction between fully powered vehicles and not. You could also make a distinction between fully protected vehicles (two tons of steel around you in the form of a car) and not.
    - xyzzyz 9y ago
      Human assisted electric motorcycles are fully powered when the human is not assisting them. You are of course right that popular ICE vehicles, cars and motorcycles, are much, much heavier than humans, and so have little hope to achieve similar efficiency to humans on bicycles. However, if your constraints is to go as fast as bicycles, and be as safe as bicycles, I don't understand why you wouldn't be able to be more green. Electric engines are very, very efficient at transforming electricity to mechanical power, and solar panels are more efficient at transforming solar power to electricity than the plants are at converting solar power to edible calories.
      - IgorPartola 9y ago
        My whole point is that it is a choice between a safe fast method of transportation that works on virtually all weather, and an unsafe mostly seasonal slow method of transportation that is significantly greener. A powered bicycle that can go 15 mph is not in the same category as a motorcycle that can go 80 mph. Basically, if it can go on the freeway or not is the distinction I am making. Your electric assisted bicycle is just a better, less green bicycle.
- kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
  It's an electric motorcycle. Fundamentally no different than this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_motorcycle#/media/File:Triumph_1922_H_1.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_motorcycle#/med.... or these: https://www.google.com/search?q=board+track+motorcycle&tbm=isch https://www.google.com/search?q=board+track+motorcycle&tbm=i...

npsimons 9y ago

> Oh I suppose you could argue about the environmental cost of producing the extra calories consumed by the cyclist. The human body is very efficient. I'd be extremely surprised if my 15 minute bicycle commute to work burned more than 100 calories on top of my BMR. There's just no comparison. > I guess all you valley dwellers should probably cycle to work to save the planet for us all. We will applaud you from our AWD monstrosities here in the North East. I'd link to icebike.org where they used to have pictures of people cycling in Chicago in winter and articles on suitable clothing and tires, but that domain got bought out and commercialized into some mountain bike advertising site. ETA: Here you go: http://web.archive.org/web/19990221182354/http://www.enteract.com:80/%7Eicebike/ http://web.archive.org/web/19990221182354/http://www.enterac...

averagewall 9y ago
Cycling isn't that great. Humans are about 10% efficient at converting food energy to power. Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy. So that's 1% efficiency from solar to pedals. Once you count the fossil fuels used in farming, which I forget the numbers for, I think a motorbike works out better for greenhouse gas emissions than cycling. Electric bike is probably the best. That's assuming you don't reduce other workouts to make up for it. So riding your e-bike to the gym defeats the purpose.
- sampo 9y ago
  > Plants are about 10% efficient at converting sunlight to food energy. More like 0.25% to 0.5% into the edible parts of crop plants. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Photosynthetic_efficiency
tjr225 9y ago
In addition- bicycling is incredibly energy efficient. According to the citation in this Wikipedia article it is The most effecient means of movement available! https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicycle_performance You could say bicycles and vim are my favorite tools.
9y ago

yesbut 9y ago

Yeah, no kidding. The way things are today in many parts of the US make cars the only viable option. The real alternative to cars is better public transportation. Even cities with terrible weather can have great public transportation solutions. Cars are fine for rural areas, but no reason cities and suburbs shouldn't be re-engineered for bicycles and better public transport.

mstaoru 9y ago

In China, most people ride something like this: http://www.niu.com/ http://www.niu.com/ - small affordable (usually in $100-300 range) electric scooters that typically use 48V 20Ah batteries for a 70-80km distance. From the Niu stats, it seems like it uses about 1.1kWh/100km (in electricity), compared to a bicycle that uses about 3.1kWh/100km (in food energy, source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport#Land_transport_means https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_efficiency_in_transport...). If the electricity produced in a "clean" way, it seems that riding an electric scooter is quite green even compared to biking. Of course, biking has a bunch of other advantages: sport and exercise, unlimited range, transportability, not mentioning mountain biking etc.