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I missed seeing the mentioned article, but I wonder if this is an inevitable result of the natural fallacy that has taken over Western culture. Let's all get b

I missed seeing the mentioned article, but I wonder if this is an inevitable result of the natural fallacy that has taken over Western culture. Let's all get back to the Earth and live the way many of our ancestors did: dying off in our youth or dealing with either preventable and crippling diseases or even just wandering around with weird diseases that just make life far less enjoyable. On the one hand, if we were to take this approach, it would speed up natural selection for us and whatever germs develop to kill us. But for chemicals and things we do for purification of water supplies, we can at least control the chemicals and how often we use them, and I have yet heard of a any really serious bugs that can survive chlorine or just pure heat. I guess I just can't grok the way people claim to wish to live in the past, but what they're really describing often is similar to how we would describe living in a third world. Unless you really believe our feces is cleaner than most, that unfiltered water your drinking could very well contain the feces of someone ignorant enough (or a pranking trollish person) to drop a deuce into the local stream. And I have a great appreciation for just how blunder headed we can be, so it wouldn't shock me if and when that'd happen. And ultimately, what's the real goal of the original article? Is it to make sure people increase their risk? Or to provide some confirmation bias to those who will do it either way?

aaronblohowiak 9y ago
> I have yet heard of a any really serious bugs that can survive chlorine or just pure heat. prions. not sure if you consider them "bugs" though.
- kleer001 9y ago
  One could think of them as edge cases in the "program" of protein folding and therefore a 'bug' of sorts.
- Retric 9y ago
  Heat will destroy prions, but you need far higher temperatures for longer periods than normal.
- jjoonathan 9y ago
  Their ability to resist heat has been greatly exaggerated. The kernel of truth is that some sterilization procedures are insufficient to eliminate them and that definitive guidelines have not been fully agreed on. Common folklore translates this into "they are impervious to heat."
  - DrScump 9y ago
    Please describe the process by which a prion is rendered harmless at a mere 100C. Denaturing a protein generally requires a lot more.
    - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
      > Denaturing a protein generally requires a lot more .. than 100C Nope. Protein generally denatures at lower than 100C / boiling point. That's the principle of Sous Vide, not that you should use Sous Vide to sterilise anything, but the protein in egg white denatures at 60-80C. http://www.scienceofcooking.com/eggs/eggs_sous_vide.htm http://www.scienceofcooking.com/eggs/eggs_sous_vide.htm And in meat it's similar, 50-70C http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/Sous_vide_cooking http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/Sous_vide_cooking If you doubt it, stick your hand in water at 80C and see what happens.
      - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
        Prions don't degrade at the boiling point: http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jgv/82/2/0820465a.pdf?expires=1518047129&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5B41A4F4F072CF1011FBADABD6ED4C6E http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jgv/8...
        SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        Sure, though that's entirely different from the grandparent post's statement about "Denaturing a protein generally", which happens well below boiling point.
    - 9y ago
EGreg 9y ago
Just out of curiosity, where do Indians who live near the Ganges river get all their drinking water?? That river has got to be a record holder for parts of feces per million water molecules :)
- GuiA 9y ago
  From the Ganges, and they suffer for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_of_the_Ganges#Human_beings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_of_the_Ganges#Huma...
InclinedPlane 9y ago
There are actually many things that can survive in chlorinated water, but fortunately the way things work out it's not really a concern the vast majority of the time. Cryptospiridium spores, for example, can resist chlorination.
racer-v 9y ago
The mentioned article https://slate.com/technology/2018/02/filtering-stream-water-or-fresh-water-is-medically-unnecessary.html https://slate.com/technology/2018/02/filtering-stream-water-... - is typical muckraking journalism. The original Slate author is trying to create a scandal out of the idea that outdoor gear makers are deceiving you in order to sell junk you don't need. He then throws in salacious and irrelevant intimations about race and class ("Because the outdoor recreation community is far whiter, wealthier, and better educated than the U.S. population at large, it’s an interesting case study in how misinformation propagates through privileged communities.") It's clickbait, exactly the sort of garbage published on the front page of every newsprint weekly - taxi drivers without medallions: scandalous! Boat owners profit from people fishing: another scandal! The real scandal is how any of this passes as journalism.
- racer-v 9y ago
  Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the term "natural fallacy". I don't think it's the "naturalistic fallacy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy - it sounds more like simple nostalgia. Just because people like some things about the past doesn't mean they want to literally return to the past.
  - chc 9y ago
    It basically is the naturalistic fallacy. It's taking nature as the way things ought to be and human developments as dangerous aberrations. There is an element of nostalgia to it as well, but the nostalgia is for a time when we were "closer to nature."
    - racer-v 9y ago
      I notice a lot more of what I'd call the "fallacy of progress" - the idea that because humans did more of something in the past, it must be outmoded and not worth doing. Exercise and fresh air are still good for you, even though cavemen had much easier access to them than modern urbanites.
arca_vorago 9y ago
I both agree and strongly disagree with you on this. Allow me to explain. The way you frame the proposition as a luddite removal of technology based on some superficial desire to live like back in the day, I agree with. It obviously won't solve many of the issues that hunter_gatherers and early agricultural cultures and civilizations had to deal with. That said though, and I didn't rtfa, so I'm just addressing this common retort more generally, it is you who are being logically fallacious pretending that is what people who call for a return to the old ways mean. Essentially you are ad homeniming their position. (Not saying there aren't those who take the position you claim they do, but after talking to many of them I find most are being overly rhetorical and understand the need for a moderate approach). I grew up in the mountains, around Apache, Navajo, Zuni, and Hopi people, who I have learned a great deal from, and they recognize the vast quality of life improvements modern science, medicine and technology have brough, and embrace it. The fact they understand that though doesn't stop them from admonishing us in how most Americans treat the land and live out of symbiosis. They aren't calling for a naive luddite-esque return to the old ways, they are calling on us to use our technology to augment the benefits the old ways have, and that is a huge distinction. Of course there are some hippy groups that naively take that position, such as the Rainbows, and then after they've destroyed a section of forest during a party they still put on their suit and tie and drive their BMW back to California or wherever. Nobody from the forest has respect for them because their views are immature and superficial, but it is a large mistake to extrapolate that type of position to all those calling for a review of how we live in relationship to the land. There is a lot of good discussion and knowledge to be had if you can get past that. I could ramble on with some stories that illustrate what I mean, but let me summarize the position most of the native American culture from my old stomping grounds take: value community, but also value self-sufficiency within that community, because those two things make a person and a people strong and able to weather storms. Personally, when I think about thinks like space exploration, I think that approach has much wisdom in it, and given my experience of the Internet, I think decentralization is a key strength of that viewpoint as well. You know, most of them pretty much expect us to destroy ourselves because we don't listen to their wisdom. They say stuff like "We were here before America and unless they change we will be here after America."
- indubitable 9y ago
jmull 9y ago
I really think there's no specific fallacy or deeper philosophy behind this. It's just that there are various random idiots talking crap about stuff they don't understand and they occasionally stumble on to a platform to raise the profile of their stupid ideas. I think the general sentiments motivating and bolstering particular piece of BS are "I wish things were simpler", "I don't trust big organizations", "I want people to pay attention to me", "I don't care about the consequences of what I say." On the other hand, I suppose there is a general populist trend which encourages a site like slate to give thoughtless immature authors a platform for their stupid ideas as long as they stroke populist themes.

aaronblohowiak 9y ago

> I have yet heard of a any really serious bugs that can survive chlorine or just pure heat. prions. not sure if you consider them "bugs" though.

kleer001 9y ago
One could think of them as edge cases in the "program" of protein folding and therefore a 'bug' of sorts.
Retric 9y ago
Heat will destroy prions, but you need far higher temperatures for longer periods than normal.
jjoonathan 9y ago
Their ability to resist heat has been greatly exaggerated. The kernel of truth is that some sterilization procedures are insufficient to eliminate them and that definitive guidelines have not been fully agreed on. Common folklore translates this into "they are impervious to heat."
- DrScump 9y ago
  Please describe the process by which a prion is rendered harmless at a mere 100C. Denaturing a protein generally requires a lot more.
  - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
    > Denaturing a protein generally requires a lot more .. than 100C Nope. Protein generally denatures at lower than 100C / boiling point. That's the principle of Sous Vide, not that you should use Sous Vide to sterilise anything, but the protein in egg white denatures at 60-80C. http://www.scienceofcooking.com/eggs/eggs_sous_vide.htm http://www.scienceofcooking.com/eggs/eggs_sous_vide.htm And in meat it's similar, 50-70C http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/Sous_vide_cooking http://www.mpip-mainz.mpg.de/Sous_vide_cooking If you doubt it, stick your hand in water at 80C and see what happens.
    - aaronblohowiak 9y ago
      Prions don't degrade at the boiling point: http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jgv/82/2/0820465a.pdf?expires=1518047129&id=id&accname=guest&checksum=5B41A4F4F072CF1011FBADABD6ED4C6E http://www.microbiologyresearch.org/docserver/fulltext/jgv/8...
      - SideburnsOfDoom 9y ago
        Sure, though that's entirely different from the grandparent post's statement about "Denaturing a protein generally", which happens well below boiling point.
  - 9y ago

EGreg 9y ago

Just out of curiosity, where do Indians who live near the Ganges river get all their drinking water?? That river has got to be a record holder for parts of feces per million water molecules :)

GuiA 9y ago
From the Ganges, and they suffer for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_of_the_Ganges#Human_beings https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollution_of_the_Ganges#Huma...

InclinedPlane 9y ago

There are actually many things that can survive in chlorinated water, but fortunately the way things work out it's not really a concern the vast majority of the time. Cryptospiridium spores, for example, can resist chlorination.

racer-v 9y ago

The mentioned article https://slate.com/technology/2018/02/filtering-stream-water-or-fresh-water-is-medically-unnecessary.html https://slate.com/technology/2018/02/filtering-stream-water-... - is typical muckraking journalism. The original Slate author is trying to create a scandal out of the idea that outdoor gear makers are deceiving you in order to sell junk you don't need. He then throws in salacious and irrelevant intimations about race and class ("Because the outdoor recreation community is far whiter, wealthier, and better educated than the U.S. population at large, it’s an interesting case study in how misinformation propagates through privileged communities.") It's clickbait, exactly the sort of garbage published on the front page of every newsprint weekly - taxi drivers without medallions: scandalous! Boat owners profit from people fishing: another scandal! The real scandal is how any of this passes as journalism.

racer-v 9y ago
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by the term "natural fallacy". I don't think it's the "naturalistic fallacy" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naturalistic_fallacy - it sounds more like simple nostalgia. Just because people like some things about the past doesn't mean they want to literally return to the past.
- chc 9y ago
  It basically is the naturalistic fallacy. It's taking nature as the way things ought to be and human developments as dangerous aberrations. There is an element of nostalgia to it as well, but the nostalgia is for a time when we were "closer to nature."
  - racer-v 9y ago
    I notice a lot more of what I'd call the "fallacy of progress" - the idea that because humans did more of something in the past, it must be outmoded and not worth doing. Exercise and fresh air are still good for you, even though cavemen had much easier access to them than modern urbanites.

arca_vorago 9y ago

I both agree and strongly disagree with you on this. Allow me to explain. The way you frame the proposition as a luddite removal of technology based on some superficial desire to live like back in the day, I agree with. It obviously won't solve many of the issues that hunter_gatherers and early agricultural cultures and civilizations had to deal with. That said though, and I didn't rtfa, so I'm just addressing this common retort more generally, it is you who are being logically fallacious pretending that is what people who call for a return to the old ways mean. Essentially you are ad homeniming their position. (Not saying there aren't those who take the position you claim they do, but after talking to many of them I find most are being overly rhetorical and understand the need for a moderate approach). I grew up in the mountains, around Apache, Navajo, Zuni, and Hopi people, who I have learned a great deal from, and they recognize the vast quality of life improvements modern science, medicine and technology have brough, and embrace it. The fact they understand that though doesn't stop them from admonishing us in how most Americans treat the land and live out of symbiosis. They aren't calling for a naive luddite-esque return to the old ways, they are calling on us to use our technology to augment the benefits the old ways have, and that is a huge distinction. Of course there are some hippy groups that naively take that position, such as the Rainbows, and then after they've destroyed a section of forest during a party they still put on their suit and tie and drive their BMW back to California or wherever. Nobody from the forest has respect for them because their views are immature and superficial, but it is a large mistake to extrapolate that type of position to all those calling for a review of how we live in relationship to the land. There is a lot of good discussion and knowledge to be had if you can get past that. I could ramble on with some stories that illustrate what I mean, but let me summarize the position most of the native American culture from my old stomping grounds take: value community, but also value self-sufficiency within that community, because those two things make a person and a people strong and able to weather storms. Personally, when I think about thinks like space exploration, I think that approach has much wisdom in it, and given my experience of the Internet, I think decentralization is a key strength of that viewpoint as well. You know, most of them pretty much expect us to destroy ourselves because we don't listen to their wisdom. They say stuff like "We were here before America and unless they change we will be here after America."

indubitable 9y ago

jmull 9y ago

I really think there's no specific fallacy or deeper philosophy behind this. It's just that there are various random idiots talking crap about stuff they don't understand and they occasionally stumble on to a platform to raise the profile of their stupid ideas. I think the general sentiments motivating and bolstering particular piece of BS are "I wish things were simpler", "I don't trust big organizations", "I want people to pay attention to me", "I don't care about the consequences of what I say." On the other hand, I suppose there is a general populist trend which encourages a site like slate to give thoughtless immature authors a platform for their stupid ideas as long as they stroke populist themes.