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While that is annoying, I think we should clarify that it is not abuse. I hesitate to even consider it manipulation. Maybe I am missing something. Could you giv

by gt_ 9y ago

While that is annoying, I think we should clarify that it is not abuse. I hesitate to even consider it manipulation. Maybe I am missing something. Could you give an example? It sounds dishonorable at most, but not offensive. To be honest, my first thought is that an insinuation of this being abuse is more qualified manipulation than the behavior you’re critiquing. You can always just let the person out of your life. It sounds likely they are merely not meeting your standards because humans are irrational, weird, biological and well, human.

DoreenMichele 9y ago
You seem to be misreading my point. People who are abusive very often apologize for it. For example, men who beat their wives routinely apologize afterwards and even swear they will stop. But they don't. They escalate. The beatings get worse. Habitual empty apologies don't constitute abuse per se. There are people with, for example, low self esteem who just apologize for everything all the time. This is annoying, but not abusive. But abusive people who actually do terrible things also apologize a lot. However, they don't change and they don't make amends. These are not people I want in my life.
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maxxxxx 9y ago
I have seen that with an alcoholic I rented an office with. He would mess up, apologize profusely and soon mess up again big time. He definitely was a master at convincing apologies and I think he know it and used it. I think that qualifies as abusive. I have heard the same about people who beat their spouse.
- Broken_Hippo 9y ago
  To be fair, he might have been actually sorry, but not actually able to get over his addiction to alcohol enough to break the cycle. I'd say it wasn't an excuse if medical & science based treatment was available within the addicted's price range, along with social help for both the addict and their family as needed. It does qualify as abusive to a point, but it really depends on the person and how they react to the addiction. Abusive spouses do have similar behavior, and some addicts are also abusive. These folks should be prosecuted, and given help while in jail so they aren't as likely to commit the same crimes (psychological help for anger management, halfway houses to adjust, medical/science based addiction services that continue after release).
  - DoreenMichele 9y ago
    My dad drank very heavily for many years. My mother never cared because, in her words, "There was always enough money and he was never a mean drunk." I have seen studies that have concluded that a lot of behavior that gets blamed on drugs and alcohol is behavior they were looking for an excuse to engage in. They drank to facilitate the socially unacceptable behavior. So the cause and effect relationship is the opposite of what gets claimed. In other words, they didn't do a terrible thing because they were drunk. They got drunk so they could do the terrible thing. (Example: pedophilia) I have loads of sympathy for an addict's inability to stop using. I am convinced that most addiction is literally self medicating for often unidentified issues. But I have damn little sympathy for an addict using their addiction as an excuse to crap on me. I don't buy it. I don't think having an addiction inherently leads to uncontrollable bad behavior that they just can't help (aside from rampant foot in mouth disease, which I also sometimes suffer due to my medical condition). I think that's a lie that they keep telling because it works. I believe drugs should be decriminalized. I think the need to hide it fuels a lot of bad behavior that isn't due to the drug per se but is due, instead, to bs social factors. I believe you should be able to imbibe whatever you want. It is your body. I believe people need very supportive environments when coming off drugs because withdrawal is a bitch and people really do crazy stuff at that time. BTDT having never been an addict thanks to a serious medical condition. But I do not believe in simply excusing repeated bad behavior because someone drinks or takes some other drug. We don't say people with medical conditions who are permanently on medication for it are excused from standards of behavior. So I see zero reason to say that about addiction.
gregshap 9y ago
I don't think poster is saying that all people who apologize often are abusers, but that many abusers fit this pattern of alternating bad behavior with apologies/compensation. It rings very true if you have seen firsthand.

by gt_ 9y ago

DoreenMichele 9y ago

You seem to be misreading my point. People who are abusive very often apologize for it. For example, men who beat their wives routinely apologize afterwards and even swear they will stop. But they don't. They escalate. The beatings get worse. Habitual empty apologies don't constitute abuse per se. There are people with, for example, low self esteem who just apologize for everything all the time. This is annoying, but not abusive. But abusive people who actually do terrible things also apologize a lot. However, they don't change and they don't make amends. These are not people I want in my life.

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maxxxxx 9y ago

I have seen that with an alcoholic I rented an office with. He would mess up, apologize profusely and soon mess up again big time. He definitely was a master at convincing apologies and I think he know it and used it. I think that qualifies as abusive. I have heard the same about people who beat their spouse.

Broken_Hippo 9y ago
To be fair, he might have been actually sorry, but not actually able to get over his addiction to alcohol enough to break the cycle. I'd say it wasn't an excuse if medical & science based treatment was available within the addicted's price range, along with social help for both the addict and their family as needed. It does qualify as abusive to a point, but it really depends on the person and how they react to the addiction. Abusive spouses do have similar behavior, and some addicts are also abusive. These folks should be prosecuted, and given help while in jail so they aren't as likely to commit the same crimes (psychological help for anger management, halfway houses to adjust, medical/science based addiction services that continue after release).
- DoreenMichele 9y ago
  My dad drank very heavily for many years. My mother never cared because, in her words, "There was always enough money and he was never a mean drunk." I have seen studies that have concluded that a lot of behavior that gets blamed on drugs and alcohol is behavior they were looking for an excuse to engage in. They drank to facilitate the socially unacceptable behavior. So the cause and effect relationship is the opposite of what gets claimed. In other words, they didn't do a terrible thing because they were drunk. They got drunk so they could do the terrible thing. (Example: pedophilia) I have loads of sympathy for an addict's inability to stop using. I am convinced that most addiction is literally self medicating for often unidentified issues. But I have damn little sympathy for an addict using their addiction as an excuse to crap on me. I don't buy it. I don't think having an addiction inherently leads to uncontrollable bad behavior that they just can't help (aside from rampant foot in mouth disease, which I also sometimes suffer due to my medical condition). I think that's a lie that they keep telling because it works. I believe drugs should be decriminalized. I think the need to hide it fuels a lot of bad behavior that isn't due to the drug per se but is due, instead, to bs social factors. I believe you should be able to imbibe whatever you want. It is your body. I believe people need very supportive environments when coming off drugs because withdrawal is a bitch and people really do crazy stuff at that time. BTDT having never been an addict thanks to a serious medical condition. But I do not believe in simply excusing repeated bad behavior because someone drinks or takes some other drug. We don't say people with medical conditions who are permanently on medication for it are excused from standards of behavior. So I see zero reason to say that about addiction.

gregshap 9y ago

I don't think poster is saying that all people who apologize often are abusers, but that many abusers fit this pattern of alternating bad behavior with apologies/compensation. It rings very true if you have seen firsthand.